I still think map drops are fine - boost drops and good players can do 79++ all day long

"

morbo wrote:

snip

Your map run results are similar to mine. In the ~40 x 78 maps, I've dropped ~5 x 79 maps.

Your roll strategy is similar to mine, but it appears there are a few differences. I am focusing specifically on 77/78 below, as this is where I've made the most significant changes to my roll strategy since 1.3.

You and most people know all of below. I think the difference is where we apply that knowledge.

I chisel + alch. Then I will use 1-2 chaos orbs to get a decent roll. That is a pack mod + a decent iiq. Decent being 80%+. Frequently, the first alch will be enough. I do not spam chaos until I get 100%+. Sometimes, if unlucky, I will need to use a few more chaos. At this point, I will vaal the map. With very few exceptions (i.e. plateau with 120% + 30% pack), even with a good 77/78 roll, I will still vaal the map.

The reason I vaal is based around the outcomes and the impact they have on the map.

1) vaal does nothing: this is a neutral outcome. At least the boss may drop a fragment.

2) vaal rerolls the map, and makes it worse: this is fine also. Remember how we spent very few orbs on the map? This is one of the reasons

3) vaal gives us 8 mods: this is a great outcome. We've not spent tons of orbs, and have gotten an even better roll. This might actually be a really challenging map, which is why I have various characters that can help out here.

4) vaal gives us +30% by going unid. This is useful for cases where we had a pack modifier. This roll becomes less effective as we increase the quantity of the map.

5) vaal gives us a +1 map. If you had a 78 map, this roll is incredible. This is a huge win at 78, and a pretty good one at 77. Even more so if the original map was something like volcano/crema.

I estimate each has an equal chance of occurring.

Now: you have 1 outcome that is neutral, one outcome that is slightly worse, and 3 outcomes that will be good. Note that the more chaos you put into a map trying to get a decent roll, the less effective your vaal orb will be, and more chance you have of wasting currency.

Vaal like this has been one of the biggest changes I've made in 2.0, and has enabled my to play far more 78/79 maps that I would've done. It's also a good source of additional fragments. Also, it's fun!

I do not use Zana at these levels.

Regarding fragment usage, looking at the cases you've given, its similar to when I use them. As a general rule, I will not use a fragment unless there is a pack size modifier. You get the double dip benefit then. I will avoid using them for cramped maps like Volcano/Crema especially without a pack mod because I don't feel they give the full impact as using them on Plateau/Precinct for example.

Note: I am not claiming that this will build a map pool higher than 75. I still run 75 frequently. What it will do is keep you at 76+ for a bit longer, and occasionally spike you into the 79+ bracket with a bit more frequency, while saving a bit of currency in the process.

Thanks for posting your data.

I find it amusing how people claim the reason people are failing at map progression is because they fail at rolling the maps and also that buying maps is cheap.

OK, let's dismiss that the currency required to sustain via rolling and/or buying won't actually drop from the maps, let's accept, begrudgingly, that this is first and foremost a shopping game and expecting to progress without shopping is just silly, in an aRPG.

So, if those that are failing at map progression because they are failing at rolling and failing at buying maps, then conform to the map progression 101 methods and both use 4 chisels, alchs, chaos and a vaal orb.. just where does this currency come from? If everyone simply buys these cheap maps, just where do they come from, continuously at a cheap price?

It's OK Bob saying 'do what I do and you will progress as I do', if everyone tried to do as Bob did, nobody would progress as Bob did. Imagine the shortage of vaal orbs if every map ever ran above 77 or w/e by anyone required a vaal orb.

TL:DR There's only a successful way to progress if more people are unsuccessful.

That, to me, is shit design.

Whenever someone pulls out the "map rolling" argument, you know it's time to stop discussing with that person.

"

tinko92 wrote:

Whenever someone pulls out the "map rolling" argument, you know it's time to stop discussing with that person.

Yea because rolling maps means nothing. That's why many hundred maps deep you are still improving your technique and optimzing even more... Because it's easy to learn real quick and anyway makes minimal difference.

You are welcome to put a bit more effort into your arguments or you will be too easily classified as one who don't know much.

"

Crackmonster wrote:

Yea because rolling maps means nothing. That's why many hundred maps deep you are still improving your technique and optimzing even more... Because it's easy to learn real quick and anyway makes minimal difference.

You are welcome to put a bit more effort into your arguments or you will be too easily classified as one who don't know much.

What a predictable reply. No, not because rolling map means nothing.

Look Crackmonster, here's a reality check for you. If you really think you're smart because you made a conclusion that high IIQ and monster pack mod are good (naturally, the higher value the better), well, you're not.
A 5 year old kid would made that conclusion.


You're welcome to find some other thing that actually requires some intelligence to boost your ego, because this is just embarrassingly hilarious.

Yea, let's tell all noobs they will suck so they shouldn't even bother to play.

Don't even try tinko,

Map rolling skills makes an enormous difference. No amount of "i'm right, and ur just dumb/too blind" arguments will change that.

So at the end of the day, you still have no clue what you are talking about, misleading people. It's an obvious fact by reading your every post.

Anyways, im through with you.

"

Crackmonster wrote:

"

tinko92 wrote:

Whenever someone pulls out the "map rolling" argument, you know it's time to stop discussing with that person.

Yea because rolling maps means nothing. That's why many hundred maps deep you are still improving your technique and optimzing even more... Because it's easy to learn real quick and anyway makes minimal difference.

You are welcome to put a bit more effort into your arguments or you will be too easily classified as one who don't know much.

Rolling maps really means not much. If you Alc + Chisel every map you get an average of about 80 to 90% for your maps and 15% packsize. And I doubt that there are many people not getting this. Everything you do beyond is mainly cosmetic. You can't get higher average packsize, that is incredible hard and means rerolling everything that has no packsize often losing high quantity in the progress.

If I have a map with 106% quantity and 0 Packsize and one with 70% Quantity and 15% Packsize I would take the former because:

Rares and the Boss aren't packs. 106% increased quantity actually means 206% drops. While 15% Packsize means 115% drops from blues and whites. Dropping from 206% drops to 170% drops means you lose 18% drops from the map, while the packsize gives you 15% back, but only for mobs that actually form packs (iE white and blue enemies).

So if I add 3 Fragments to my 206% map I actually only get 7% more maps from it. If you chaos your maps just to get on average 5% - 10% IIQ more on the maps it isn't worth it. Assuming you spend 2 chaos per map to achieve this on average you could buy one 76 map for every two to three maps done. And due to the price and the fixed result using fragments instead of chaosing maps is always better unless you have a really terrible map, but with the current mods this is quite unlikely (and you could still just Vaal it and hope for the best).

"

Crackmonster wrote:

"

tinko92 wrote:

Whenever someone pulls out the "map rolling" argument, you know it's time to stop discussing with that person.

Yea because rolling maps means nothing. That's why many hundred maps deep you are still improving your technique and optimzing even more... Because it's easy to learn real quick and anyway makes minimal difference.

You are welcome to put a bit more effort into your arguments or you will be too easily classified as one who don't know much.

How many extremely well rolled maps that dropped nothing do people have to link for you to stop using this argument?

We're calling rolling maps a "skill" now? It's really not that difficult a concept: get mods you can run without dying and maximize iiq.

Unless the "skill" is "having the currency to do this."

If I get good RNG and a mirror drops for me, does that make me "skilled at looting?" Map drops are based on stats and probability, guys. Once you get high iiq on a map, there's no skill involved (besides actually playing).

It's unwise to blame players for getting low drops in a game somewhat dependent on low drops. And it's unwise to keep pretending this issue isn't real - do you think we're all in some conspiracy just to complain about nothing? Why does the feedback section exist if any complaint can be dismissed as unrepresentative of the community, even when it keeps coming up in thread after thread? Why are you even here reading any of it if you find it unimportant?

I welcome everyone's input, I really do. I just don't have much respect for when people say "your opinion does not matter, even when it's shared by a lot of other people here. You're all just bad at the game."

I'm saying all of this in response to some arguments I've seen across this topic, not to any particular post in this thread.