State of the Beta - Post #6

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robmafia wrote:

no one's going to look forward to crafting again... unless they already have an absurd amount of tabs full of exalts/eternals/mirrors (*cough, ventor, cough*). and i suspect even he sees the futility of it... he just knows he could be the lone mirror mogul if he wants to be.

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Dos_Fafner wrote:

Some food for thought…..
First things first: Why would any balancing to the core concepts and principles of the game and its characters be done based around parties when the game is single and multiplayer? Damage, life, defense, and general gameplay balanced strictly for party playing will be prohibitive to those of us that enjoy single player. Furthermore, there’s a specific comment regarding a “group” sustaining mid-to-high level maps – so we shouldn’t be able to successfully sustain single player maps? Not only is it not really “balancing” but it is also bad policy as there’s no telling how reproducible a single successful group is.

The biggest issue with “balance changes”: Let’s call a spade a spade. These changes have nothing to do with actual game balance. They are targeted attacks on the top 1%-5% of PoE’s player base. What’s worse is that these attacks rarely (if ever) successfully impede the top players. What is instead accomplished is a series of dramatic setbacks for the average player culminating in what can only be called a prohibitive game design for new players. Mechanics that appear to trivialize content for the top players do not in fact trivialize the game for the vast majority of players. Breaking, targeting, eliminating, nerfing, and destabilizing these mechanics is, at best, a small inconvenience for the top 5% who have enough resources to retool, re-gear, and restart their characters effectively; an average player cannot accomplish this quickly and loses out in the long term. The funniest part about this entire process is, anecdotally speaking, GGG has consistently lost this uphill battle against the top 5%. There will always be players breaking the curve in damage and defense leaving the impression that the game is in fact easy. It is not realistic to make the game “hard” for 5% while leaving it even moderately playable for the remaining player base. A simple solution would be adding difficulty tiers or not adding uniques that allow these over-amped builds to function.

Rationalization or “logicizing”: The biggest kick in the teeth about all of this is that we are treated like idiots. To anyone playing for a substantial amount of time these changes that make no sense (adjustments to map drops, reduced mana, there’s more for sure) are so obviously aimed at specific builds and more specifically the top 5% of players that it is nothing but absurd to suggest another reason for implementing them. Suggesting that there was “logic” or thought behind the changes is ridiculous. The changes were made to eliminate certain play styles and weaken certain builds. The “reasons” were then invented afterwards to make it seem like less of an arbitrary decision. The reality is no reasons are necessary. Make the changes, make them as you see fit, and quit pretending that it’s all for the greater glory of the player base. No one has ever complained about receiving higher-than-they-can-handle maps. If it was a problem, any player would have no difficulty trading high maps for low maps. Suggesting that there is “danger” to items or maps dropping that players cannot foresee belittles every player and makes less than no sense at all. Logic and reason come before actions. If a decision is arrived at logically there is no need to explain how it was arrived at to a logical person (CWDT-EC-IC: definitely over-used, had to go; no explanation necessary). Save your rationalizations; no one with a modicum of common sense believes them. Every change would be better received under the blanket of “Continuing the private war on the top 5%” than any amount of self-rationalized garbage.

Sweeping changes as a continued basis for game design: I realize I may be alone in enjoying builds that do not function at the highest level of efficiency, but I do enjoy every class used in almost every conceivable way possible. I have had moderate success in building, leveling, and playing every class and have taken most of them into the highest levels of difficulty. I feel it is a great credit to the game that this can be done. I hate that every 6 months I’m back at the drawing board with 10+ level 80 characters and no idea what to do with their skill trees, gear, and overall builds. When small changes are made incrementally, it’s not that prohibitive to enjoying existing characters. When sweeping changes are made to skill mechanics, passive trees, and overall game mechanics it essentially means shelving every character for several months and re-learning the game. This is more of a question than anything else: Can we ever be certain that what we like and enjoy won’t be destroyed in the ongoing struggle to defeat the most successful players in the game (IE: the war with the top 5%)? I know it is a valiant and worthy cause, but it’s seriously annoying to every veteran player that has more than one character. Change is fine. New content is fine. Skill tweaking is fine. Actual balance changes are fine (adjustments to base damage, life, mana, etc). The vast overhaul proposed by Act 4 is ridiculous. If done at all, these changes should have been implemented singly in order to better gauge impact. Dropping them all at the same time not only prevents actual data regarding how effective the changes are individually but it also makes retooling characters a nightmare. I also feel for the poor souls holding mirror-worthy items with the sure knowledge that their crafting and resources will be outstripped by better, higher-tier mods at arbitrarily determined intervals. This just further showcases the private war. What’s worse is the casualties will extend down the entire player base by making very decent end game uniques no longer viable (damage-wise) for end-game content as said content will, I’m sure, be balanced around the newly available mods. Furthermore, very decent weapons, etc that exist currently (but fall well below being mirror-worthy) will similarly be worth less (Note: not worthless, but worth less).

I normally hold my tongue for updates (which are mostly just underwhelming overall – probably because I’m not in the top 5% so they aren’t targeted at me). I’m not even really upset or angered by the proposed changes, though I do think they’re generally terrible. The only “reason” for my post is I’m sick of reading nonsense about the “logic” and “reason” behind these changes. Either give the real reason (You hate watching people steamroll content that you thought would be difficult and challenging for years to come) or don’t give any reason at all. We all know the source of the changes so just put a tag line PWT5% (Private War Top 5%) and be done with it.
That is all.
Dos

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Darkaleb wrote:

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Dos_Fafner wrote:

Some food for thought…..
First things first: Why would any balancing to the core concepts and principles of the game and its characters be done based around parties when the game is single and multiplayer? Damage, life, defense, and general gameplay balanced strictly for party playing will be prohibitive to those of us that enjoy single player. Furthermore, there’s a specific comment regarding a “group” sustaining mid-to-high level maps – so we shouldn’t be able to successfully sustain single player maps? Not only is it not really “balancing” but it is also bad policy as there’s no telling how reproducible a single successful group is.

The biggest issue with “balance changes”: Let’s call a spade a spade. These changes have nothing to do with actual game balance. They are targeted attacks on the top 1%-5% of PoE’s player base. What’s worse is that these attacks rarely (if ever) successfully impede the top players. What is instead accomplished is a series of dramatic setbacks for the average player culminating in what can only be called a prohibitive game design for new players. Mechanics that appear to trivialize content for the top players do not in fact trivialize the game for the vast majority of players. Breaking, targeting, eliminating, nerfing, and destabilizing these mechanics is, at best, a small inconvenience for the top 5% who have enough resources to retool, re-gear, and restart their characters effectively; an average player cannot accomplish this quickly and loses out in the long term. The funniest part about this entire process is, anecdotally speaking, GGG has consistently lost this uphill battle against the top 5%. There will always be players breaking the curve in damage and defense leaving the impression that the game is in fact easy. It is not realistic to make the game “hard” for 5% while leaving it even moderately playable for the remaining player base. A simple solution would be adding difficulty tiers or not adding uniques that allow these over-amped builds to function.

Rationalization or “logicizing”: The biggest kick in the teeth about all of this is that we are treated like idiots. To anyone playing for a substantial amount of time these changes that make no sense (adjustments to map drops, reduced mana, there’s more for sure) are so obviously aimed at specific builds and more specifically the top 5% of players that it is nothing but absurd to suggest another reason for implementing them. Suggesting that there was “logic” or thought behind the changes is ridiculous. The changes were made to eliminate certain play styles and weaken certain builds. The “reasons” were then invented afterwards to make it seem like less of an arbitrary decision. The reality is no reasons are necessary. Make the changes, make them as you see fit, and quit pretending that it’s all for the greater glory of the player base. No one has ever complained about receiving higher-than-they-can-handle maps. If it was a problem, any player would have no difficulty trading high maps for low maps. Suggesting that there is “danger” to items or maps dropping that players cannot foresee belittles every player and makes less than no sense at all. Logic and reason come before actions. If a decision is arrived at logically there is no need to explain how it was arrived at to a logical person (CWDT-EC-IC: definitely over-used, had to go; no explanation necessary). Save your rationalizations; no one with a modicum of common sense believes them. Every change would be better received under the blanket of “Continuing the private war on the top 5%” than any amount of self-rationalized garbage.

Sweeping changes as a continued basis for game design: I realize I may be alone in enjoying builds that do not function at the highest level of efficiency, but I do enjoy every class used in almost every conceivable way possible. I have had moderate success in building, leveling, and playing every class and have taken most of them into the highest levels of difficulty. I feel it is a great credit to the game that this can be done. I hate that every 6 months I’m back at the drawing board with 10+ level 80 characters and no idea what to do with their skill trees, gear, and overall builds. When small changes are made incrementally, it’s not that prohibitive to enjoying existing characters. When sweeping changes are made to skill mechanics, passive trees, and overall game mechanics it essentially means shelving every character for several months and re-learning the game. This is more of a question than anything else: Can we ever be certain that what we like and enjoy won’t be destroyed in the ongoing struggle to defeat the most successful players in the game (IE: the war with the top 5%)? I know it is a valiant and worthy cause, but it’s seriously annoying to every veteran player that has more than one character. Change is fine. New content is fine. Skill tweaking is fine. Actual balance changes are fine (adjustments to base damage, life, mana, etc). The vast overhaul proposed by Act 4 is ridiculous. If done at all, these changes should have been implemented singly in order to better gauge impact. Dropping them all at the same time not only prevents actual data regarding how effective the changes are individually but it also makes retooling characters a nightmare. I also feel for the poor souls holding mirror-worthy items with the sure knowledge that their crafting and resources will be outstripped by better, higher-tier mods at arbitrarily determined intervals. This just further showcases the private war. What’s worse is the casualties will extend down the entire player base by making very decent end game uniques no longer viable (damage-wise) for end-game content as said content will, I’m sure, be balanced around the newly available mods. Furthermore, very decent weapons, etc that exist currently (but fall well below being mirror-worthy) will similarly be worth less (Note: not worthless, but worth less).

I normally hold my tongue for updates (which are mostly just underwhelming overall – probably because I’m not in the top 5% so they aren’t targeted at me). I’m not even really upset or angered by the proposed changes, though I do think they’re generally terrible. The only “reason” for my post is I’m sick of reading nonsense about the “logic” and “reason” behind these changes. Either give the real reason (You hate watching people steamroll content that you thought would be difficult and challenging for years to come) or don’t give any reason at all. We all know the source of the changes so just put a tag line PWT5% (Private War Top 5%) and be done with it.
That is all.
Dos

Standing ovation for you mate.

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Grindrix wrote:

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robmafia wrote:

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Grindrix wrote:

Not true, many current crafters love this change,

bs. ventor is the only crafter i've seen in this whole mess to (maybe) be positive about it, but he's also a troll, so i can't even be sure of that, anyway.

literally every other crafter i've seen here hasn't been voicing "love."

I craft for fun and for myself, even to achieve a 6t1 piece, not for what the monopolist players here have done. Those that monopolize should be hit hard. They are for pure profit and believes this game would never change. The denial in those players is absurd and I grant little emotion towards those that live to monopolize this game and refuse change when real life is too short and this game deserves these changes. The best patch ever. If the top people cry then that's their problem. Games deserve great changes! There are smaller crafters that truly find this fair and groundbreaking. GGG is doing right here.

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Pepock wrote:

that was a bit depressing

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KorgothBG wrote:

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Lordsidro wrote:

But, it's not a perm league game. The game is about temp leagues. It's really a courtesy they have a standard league at all, or no perm death, unlike like other games in the genre.
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Ok how the hell did you came to that conclusion? It's not a perm league game ? It's a temp league game ? I'm curious where can i read that info ?

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LoloTwingo wrote:

It's funny to see that people complaining about the new tier mods are the same who think using exa/eternal/... is considered crafting only if the purpose is to get a 6t1.
"If not aiming a 6t1, it's not crafting".
I think it's typical of those people thinking they better know the game than others, and better know what is good for the game, because they have hundreds of exalts or like.

Just think you represent 0.0...1% of players, and the other 99.9...9% just don't care about BiS items, just have 3 or 4 exalts, will probably never ever drop an eternal, and keep their few exalt in hope of having an additional good roll on their just dropped "not so bad" item, that we, lambda player, are happy to use.

You people having tons of exalts and eternal, and some mirror items, think you know the game. You probably masters the game mechanics, but you don't know anymore what IS the game, because the game is not how you play that game, it is how 99% of the players are playing the game : using mid rolls items, self dropped uniques, and are just happy to see thes new tier mods and balance changes renewing the game.

Laurent (France, sorry if my english is not perfect :D )

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Anyone thinking people are going to find items with these top tier stats that are going to be better than current mirrored weapons are not in tune with the reality.

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lllllDethkloklllll wrote:

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trav_dawg wrote:

Few things to address:

1) Chris explicitly stated in the past that they want to go in a lateral progression for character development in expansions rather than vertical. He said they do not want to de-value people's items that they worked/played hard to obtain.

2) Yes my sword is still a good item, that's not the point. If I completed it as 6t1 I could recoup some of the cost of making it in mirror service, now you made it NOT tier 1 and that opportunity has been taken away.

3) For those defending power creep and saying its necessary. No, power creep is caused by poor game design decisions. It has ruined many games with amazing potential (Destiny is perfect recent example) It ultimately turns the game into a hamster wheel where everything you do is meaningless because it will be trivialized next patch.

4)Whonin their right mind would bother crafting a 6t1 item in 2.0 now that GGG has set the president that they'll just release newer better mods down the road?

+1

I wouldn't have an issue with the new tiers of mods if GGG didn't specifically say that they weren't going to introduce new higher tiers for mods.