State of the Beta - Post #6

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ArcaneX wrote:

Noone cares about "perm-League", its boring :)

Because whatever you like applies to all of the player base ...
It reminds me of the "who cares about non-hc" comments not that long ago ... they can't be encountered that often these days but the "lol perm-leagues suck and no one plays and/or cares for them" non-sense stepped in
"I'm going to show you pain you never knew existed, you're going to see a whole new spectrum of pain!!!!! Like a RAINBOW!"
Last edited by KorgothBG on Jun 10, 2015, 6:30:25 PM
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KorgothBG wrote:
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ArcaneX wrote:

Noone cares about "perm-League", its boring :)

Because whatever you like applies to all of the player base ...


Standard is a chill league for relaxed on & off leisure play. A lot of casual players prefer this over temp leagues. Sometimes temp leagues are fun when the reward is attainable without a large investment in time. I hopped on and played to get the blue armor mtx set and then went right back to standard after I got the achievements. Did I have time to get all my masters up to 8 in the 3 month league or get to end-game maps prior to? Nope. But I can do all that in standard. Sometimes a player like myself only has time to jump on, run the daylies, and then log off because of job, family, etc.


Since GGG has trouble balancing this massive game, when they introduce temp leagues you can sometimes treat them as just another beta test: testing new league-only items and/or mechanics. As such, beta testing is not for everyone.

So it's something for everyone. Lots of new players start off in standard - which can be a double edge sword due to standard inflation, mirrored items, fair share of assholes, etc. etc. basically what this thread is about.

Not to mention that some of the expensive packs are purchased by folks who have a 9 - 5 job, a career, a family, or some other obligations that don't allow for non-stop gaming. A lot of them are in standard :)
✰CARD✰ The Survivalist
I can’t buy any more big supporter packs because the forum only supports showing 7 legacy tags.
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ArcaneX wrote:
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grepman wrote:
this just in: GGG doesnt care about *perma-league* people


Noone cares about "perm-League", its boring :)


to the people getting on his case about it i think hes joking

i mean his 2 highest are level 66

so its exactly what cgexile is describing


Nice - I´ve been waiting for this update to come back and take a look/loving at PoE once more.
Every new league so far was crisp and fun to play - Expansion can´t be bad :D
Nice mirror prices (300ex) on standard due to those unnecessary higher tier mods.

Implement NEW creative and fun mods like you do already, do not implement higher ones - I already 2 shot 78 dom and rly don't need to 1 shot him.

Even 80+ maps will be a piece of cake with currency BiS items so where's the point in raising dps even further?

That's the only thing I'd criticize, all the other stuff which's comming is nice
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Dos_Fafner wrote:
Some food for thought…..
First things first: Why would any balancing to the core concepts and principles of the game and its characters be done based around parties when the game is single and multiplayer? Damage, life, defense, and general gameplay balanced strictly for party playing will be prohibitive to those of us that enjoy single player. Furthermore, there’s a specific comment regarding a “group” sustaining mid-to-high level maps – so we shouldn’t be able to successfully sustain single player maps? Not only is it not really “balancing” but it is also bad policy as there’s no telling how reproducible a single successful group is.

The biggest issue with “balance changes”: Let’s call a spade a spade. These changes have nothing to do with actual game balance. They are targeted attacks on the top 1%-5% of PoE’s player base. What’s worse is that these attacks rarely (if ever) successfully impede the top players. What is instead accomplished is a series of dramatic setbacks for the average player culminating in what can only be called a prohibitive game design for new players. Mechanics that appear to trivialize content for the top players do not in fact trivialize the game for the vast majority of players. Breaking, targeting, eliminating, nerfing, and destabilizing these mechanics is, at best, a small inconvenience for the top 5% who have enough resources to retool, re-gear, and restart their characters effectively; an average player cannot accomplish this quickly and loses out in the long term. The funniest part about this entire process is, anecdotally speaking, GGG has consistently lost this uphill battle against the top 5%. There will always be players breaking the curve in damage and defense leaving the impression that the game is in fact easy. It is not realistic to make the game “hard” for 5% while leaving it even moderately playable for the remaining player base. A simple solution would be adding difficulty tiers or not adding uniques that allow these over-amped builds to function.

Rationalization or “logicizing”: The biggest kick in the teeth about all of this is that we are treated like idiots. To anyone playing for a substantial amount of time these changes that make no sense (adjustments to map drops, reduced mana, there’s more for sure) are so obviously aimed at specific builds and more specifically the top 5% of players that it is nothing but absurd to suggest another reason for implementing them. Suggesting that there was “logic” or thought behind the changes is ridiculous. The changes were made to eliminate certain play styles and weaken certain builds. The “reasons” were then invented afterwards to make it seem like less of an arbitrary decision. The reality is no reasons are necessary. Make the changes, make them as you see fit, and quit pretending that it’s all for the greater glory of the player base. No one has ever complained about receiving higher-than-they-can-handle maps. If it was a problem, any player would have no difficulty trading high maps for low maps. Suggesting that there is “danger” to items or maps dropping that players cannot foresee belittles every player and makes less than no sense at all. Logic and reason come before actions. If a decision is arrived at logically there is no need to explain how it was arrived at to a logical person (CWDT-EC-IC: definitely over-used, had to go; no explanation necessary). Save your rationalizations; no one with a modicum of common sense believes them. Every change would be better received under the blanket of “Continuing the private war on the top 5%” than any amount of self-rationalized garbage.

Sweeping changes as a continued basis for game design: I realize I may be alone in enjoying builds that do not function at the highest level of efficiency, but I do enjoy every class used in almost every conceivable way possible. I have had moderate success in building, leveling, and playing every class and have taken most of them into the highest levels of difficulty. I feel it is a great credit to the game that this can be done. I hate that every 6 months I’m back at the drawing board with 10+ level 80 characters and no idea what to do with their skill trees, gear, and overall builds. When small changes are made incrementally, it’s not that prohibitive to enjoying existing characters. When sweeping changes are made to skill mechanics, passive trees, and overall game mechanics it essentially means shelving every character for several months and re-learning the game. This is more of a question than anything else: Can we ever be certain that what we like and enjoy won’t be destroyed in the ongoing struggle to defeat the most successful players in the game (IE: the war with the top 5%)? I know it is a valiant and worthy cause, but it’s seriously annoying to every veteran player that has more than one character. Change is fine. New content is fine. Skill tweaking is fine. Actual balance changes are fine (adjustments to base damage, life, mana, etc). The vast overhaul proposed by Act 4 is ridiculous. If done at all, these changes should have been implemented singly in order to better gauge impact. Dropping them all at the same time not only prevents actual data regarding how effective the changes are individually but it also makes retooling characters a nightmare. I also feel for the poor souls holding mirror-worthy items with the sure knowledge that their crafting and resources will be outstripped by better, higher-tier mods at arbitrarily determined intervals. This just further showcases the private war. What’s worse is the casualties will extend down the entire player base by making very decent end game uniques no longer viable (damage-wise) for end-game content as said content will, I’m sure, be balanced around the newly available mods. Furthermore, very decent weapons, etc that exist currently (but fall well below being mirror-worthy) will similarly be worth less (Note: not worthless, but worth less).

I normally hold my tongue for updates (which are mostly just underwhelming overall – probably because I’m not in the top 5% so they aren’t targeted at me). I’m not even really upset or angered by the proposed changes, though I do think they’re generally terrible. The only “reason” for my post is I’m sick of reading nonsense about the “logic” and “reason” behind these changes. Either give the real reason (You hate watching people steamroll content that you thought would be difficult and challenging for years to come) or don’t give any reason at all. We all know the source of the changes so just put a tag line PWT5% (Private War Top 5%) and be done with it.
That is all.
Dos


This!
I'm a casual player so I'll never see the top items anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I'll continue to support the game but I think they should pay some attention to us non pro's :( (not even going to start the discussion of a self found league ;) )
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Dos_Fafner wrote:
I also feel for the poor souls holding mirror-worthy items
holy oxymoron batman !
It seems clear to me that the development focus is on the challenge leagues. When I see all these complaints about obvious Standard-only issues I feel like I'm missing something. It's nice to have this one game that doesn't tiptoe around the casual player all the time who takes 2 years to complete a character.

"
Zed_ wrote:
It seems clear to me that the development focus is on the challenge leagues. When I see all these complaints about obvious Standard-only issues I feel like I'm missing something. It's nice to have this one game that doesn't tiptoe around the casual player all the time who takes 2 years to complete a character.
I play standard for like 90% of the time and I agree wholeheartedly.
"
Dos_Fafner wrote:
Some food for thought…..
First things first: Why would any balancing to the core concepts and principles of the game and its characters be done based around parties when the game is single and multiplayer? Damage, life, defense, and general gameplay balanced strictly for party playing will be prohibitive to those of us that enjoy single player. Furthermore, there’s a specific comment regarding a “group” sustaining mid-to-high level maps – so we shouldn’t be able to successfully sustain single player maps? Not only is it not really “balancing” but it is also bad policy as there’s no telling how reproducible a single successful group is.

The biggest issue with “balance changes”: Let’s call a spade a spade. These changes have nothing to do with actual game balance. They are targeted attacks on the top 1%-5% of PoE’s player base. What’s worse is that these attacks rarely (if ever) successfully impede the top players. What is instead accomplished is a series of dramatic setbacks for the average player culminating in what can only be called a prohibitive game design for new players. Mechanics that appear to trivialize content for the top players do not in fact trivialize the game for the vast majority of players. Breaking, targeting, eliminating, nerfing, and destabilizing these mechanics is, at best, a small inconvenience for the top 5% who have enough resources to retool, re-gear, and restart their characters effectively; an average player cannot accomplish this quickly and loses out in the long term. The funniest part about this entire process is, anecdotally speaking, GGG has consistently lost this uphill battle against the top 5%. There will always be players breaking the curve in damage and defense leaving the impression that the game is in fact easy. It is not realistic to make the game “hard” for 5% while leaving it even moderately playable for the remaining player base. A simple solution would be adding difficulty tiers or not adding uniques that allow these over-amped builds to function.

Rationalization or “logicizing”: The biggest kick in the teeth about all of this is that we are treated like idiots. To anyone playing for a substantial amount of time these changes that make no sense (adjustments to map drops, reduced mana, there’s more for sure) are so obviously aimed at specific builds and more specifically the top 5% of players that it is nothing but absurd to suggest another reason for implementing them. Suggesting that there was “logic” or thought behind the changes is ridiculous. The changes were made to eliminate certain play styles and weaken certain builds. The “reasons” were then invented afterwards to make it seem like less of an arbitrary decision. The reality is no reasons are necessary. Make the changes, make them as you see fit, and quit pretending that it’s all for the greater glory of the player base. No one has ever complained about receiving higher-than-they-can-handle maps. If it was a problem, any player would have no difficulty trading high maps for low maps. Suggesting that there is “danger” to items or maps dropping that players cannot foresee belittles every player and makes less than no sense at all. Logic and reason come before actions. If a decision is arrived at logically there is no need to explain how it was arrived at to a logical person (CWDT-EC-IC: definitely over-used, had to go; no explanation necessary). Save your rationalizations; no one with a modicum of common sense believes them. Every change would be better received under the blanket of “Continuing the private war on the top 5%” than any amount of self-rationalized garbage.

Sweeping changes as a continued basis for game design: I realize I may be alone in enjoying builds that do not function at the highest level of efficiency, but I do enjoy every class used in almost every conceivable way possible. I have had moderate success in building, leveling, and playing every class and have taken most of them into the highest levels of difficulty. I feel it is a great credit to the game that this can be done. I hate that every 6 months I’m back at the drawing board with 10+ level 80 characters and no idea what to do with their skill trees, gear, and overall builds. When small changes are made incrementally, it’s not that prohibitive to enjoying existing characters. When sweeping changes are made to skill mechanics, passive trees, and overall game mechanics it essentially means shelving every character for several months and re-learning the game. This is more of a question than anything else: Can we ever be certain that what we like and enjoy won’t be destroyed in the ongoing struggle to defeat the most successful players in the game (IE: the war with the top 5%)? I know it is a valiant and worthy cause, but it’s seriously annoying to every veteran player that has more than one character. Change is fine. New content is fine. Skill tweaking is fine. Actual balance changes are fine (adjustments to base damage, life, mana, etc). The vast overhaul proposed by Act 4 is ridiculous. If done at all, these changes should have been implemented singly in order to better gauge impact. Dropping them all at the same time not only prevents actual data regarding how effective the changes are individually but it also makes retooling characters a nightmare. I also feel for the poor souls holding mirror-worthy items with the sure knowledge that their crafting and resources will be outstripped by better, higher-tier mods at arbitrarily determined intervals. This just further showcases the private war. What’s worse is the casualties will extend down the entire player base by making very decent end game uniques no longer viable (damage-wise) for end-game content as said content will, I’m sure, be balanced around the newly available mods. Furthermore, very decent weapons, etc that exist currently (but fall well below being mirror-worthy) will similarly be worth less (Note: not worthless, but worth less).

I normally hold my tongue for updates (which are mostly just underwhelming overall – probably because I’m not in the top 5% so they aren’t targeted at me). I’m not even really upset or angered by the proposed changes, though I do think they’re generally terrible. The only “reason” for my post is I’m sick of reading nonsense about the “logic” and “reason” behind these changes. Either give the real reason (You hate watching people steamroll content that you thought would be difficult and challenging for years to come) or don’t give any reason at all. We all know the source of the changes so just put a tag line PWT5% (Private War Top 5%) and be done with it.
That is all.
Dos


I agree heavily on the fact that single player has completely lost its viability compared to party play in terms of exp gain. I am all for little carrots to encourage group play and make friends that way and play more socialy but ROTATION option absolutely crushes single player when acguiring maps is ALREADY hard on live and will only based on CB feedback get significantly harder.

I can`t stress enough how huge the difference is between a single player playing one 78 and not getting anything in return compared to one 78 6 man rotation with +5 extra free maps + the extra experience you get from party.

Something absolutely needs to be done to bring single player near the exp gain you get in 6 man rotations with the same amount of currency invested from a single players point of view.

As for this war on the 5% you are implying i am not sure that is such an issue. People with these GGG mirror worthy items are already so rich that who cares if their items lose some of their worth? The average player probably wont notice that much other than that he will start to get better drops once awakening hits too compared to before. and the 5% who will actually feel the impact of the new power tier are STILL so much richer than the average players that their game play is not destroyed at all and the average player won't notice it that much as he never had those GGG items in the first place.

As for the balance changes i think it is fine. the over all feel of the changes so far is that some op stuff got nerffed and some other gems buffed and the direction seems to be that of more uniform power level of builds and combinations of gems and gear. I have no problem with some builds losing power and other gaining some and a huge expansion seems to be a good point to do it. also i DO believe you should make all the big changes at once instead of constantly doing them on mohtnly basis (look WoW).

TL;DR; Fine with rebalancing and new power tier but the single player vs multiplayer experience gain absolutely needs to change because of rotations. Right now single player is not even moderately realistic option unless you want to be 10x slower or even more based on the rarity of the dropping of 78 maps and the lack of any other options for high ex gain.

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