A potential change I'm keen to hear your thoughts on

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Khoranth wrote:

it will just push people away from playing spell casters.

+1

After seeing what Ziggy did to make it work, seems sorta viable at first glance. However, I worry about mana costs for a 6L setup, not the cheap-ish setup he uses, and especially if you use a 7L or better skill through gear supports.

Still, maybe the added Aura will balance that out. What worries me is also that Acrobatics isn't viable at all with this, and you also have 0 Life Regen, Low Armor, Low Evasion...

I'd sooner get Acrobatics, a Large mana pool, and Spell Mana Leech.

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Khoranth wrote:

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dedoslav wrote:

The change to EB is horrible. I saw streamers honestly try to make it work, but it is extremely clunky even for simply casting the spells. Let alone using it for MoM or AA. In fact there is no way to use AA with EB now.
If GGG thinks that EB+MoM+AA is overpowered (which is arguable by itself), then a way to balance things is to nerf the individual pieces instead of destroying the whole combo completely. GGG, please stop ruining entire builds left and right.

The entire problem is that EB/MOM/AA is not overpowered. GGG assumes since the majority of spell casters use EB/MOM/AA,then it must be overpowered. Since spell casters basically have 2 choices for defense take the EB node, or use energy shield.

The real reason most spell casters choose EB over ES is that ES is extremely expensive to build around. If they take this EB nerf live, you will see a major decline in pure spell casters, due to the fact that it will take a high amount of currency to build a good ES defense.

(Unless there is some change to ES, to make it so you don't need tons of currency to play an ES build)

It suddenly occurred to me a few seconds before getting to your post that this may be precisely what GGG is trying to do. Casters are nearly always cheaper than attack-based builds. One of the many reasons for this is the fact that attacks are based off weapon dmg so you need a GG weapon to get the dps. Casters have no such restriction which makes them both cheaper and easier to gear up. IMO, a lot of the changes they are making and have made in the past attempt to make cheap builds much, much less desirable.

In other words, I think this is just another example of "economeh uber alles."

Edit: just found out that gems need 100 mil more exp to reach lvl 20 in the beta. I think this only serves to lend credence to my theory ...

It's a big "Fuck you!" to casters. >.<

This would

- make the mana problems of selfcasters worse



- make Mind over Matter pointless



- force casters to wait after every fight until their ES recharged before moving on



in conclusion this is a really bad idea, sorry guys. if u think AA and MoM are too strong, nerf them directly, but this is the wrong way to go.

haven't read the whole thread, but this could be interresting with the new eb:

after seeing ziggyd use Zealots Oath to good effect, ive also kind of figured you could probably use high cost/low cast time spells with the new EB with out much investment into another keystone or many other passives in general. Like totem builds or trap builds or discharge builds would probably work with the new EB with out having to worry about the delay mechanic. The delay should still be shortened for quality of life in general but if you removed the delay completely you would make eb into another extremely strong node like it was before.

I originally posted this in the build guide for Marauder/RaizQT's RF-Incinerator but I think it also applies here as well!

His build...



I don't think it will be usable anymore personally, which saddens me...took me forever to get my cloak six linked...gah! Really loved the build :(

EB change > Can no longer convert ES to mana, means we will loss half of our mana regen and we will burn more with RF since the old EB allowed us to remove it by converting said ES to mana. The new EB is useless for us, seeing as we need life regen to sustain RF which rules out ZO. And unless we want to sacrifice our leech for GR, and happen manage to sneak over to that side of the tree that's out. And that would cause us to live on ruby flask/health pots, not sure how that would go!

AA > Lack of mana regen! More on this below!

CoD > Because of the EB change, like I mentioned before we loss half of our mana regen, outside of beta I did a quick test and I dropped from 410 mana regen to 290 mana regen without EB allocated. Getting the amount of mana to fuel CoD is going to be a task in-itself!

Incinerate > No more shotgunning, this means while using GMP the single target is going to be shit, like literally shit, no other way to put it! And for those that are unaware of what shotgunning is! It's when you stand face to face with a target and hit it will all 5 beams, or 3 if you're using LMP. So if pre-beta you had lets say 5k tool-tip you would take that 5k and X it by 5 beams, meaning 25k single target before stages! This is no longer the case!

Even if they boost it's dmg, and adjust the gem I would highly doubt we see anything more than 8k before stages while using GMP, maybe 12k before stages with LMP! And that's assuming you are 90+, with good gear that provides a large boost to you're dmg!

There is also the mana cost of using this skill alone! Unless they have drastically changed the mana cost in the beta, using this skill alone at 12+ cast per second will stop us from using CoD, we just won't have the mana to fuel CoD, literally anything will take you to OOM status. Incinerate will eat most of out mana regen by itself! Now we might be able to fit in AA, but I feel like CoD is out the window, unless we can manage to get back what we lost! Now I personally don't see me getting from 290 mana regen back up to 410 mana regen after the change to EB!

Leech > I have heard they are doing something to this as well, even heard leech on weapons will become local? If that's the case there is another issue, because if the leech on our weapon becomes local I believe it won't affect our incinerate anymore correct? If this is the case we might have to curse with WM, or use the LL gem!

Incinerate without GMP or LMP > Just pathetic, looks so wimpy imo! Using GMP or LMP it gave it flamethrower status! But we may just have to switch out GMP or LMP to get somewhat decent damage for single target...but even then it will still lack imo!

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deusapollo wrote:

This would

- make the mana problems of selfcasters worse

GGG is rebalancing the mana costs of spells and supports so that running spells didn't require 200+ mana/sec. The change let them fix mana problems of spell casters without making attack builds even more unattractive than they are now due to needing gear luck.

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deusapollo wrote:

- make Mind over Matter pointless

No, they just made it pointless to take with EB. You can still take MoM but now taking EB with it doesn't instantly provide you with 30% more effective health. If you take MoM, you have to get more mana/mana regen to make it that effective of a defense you have put more effort into gearing for it. Consider Acro, if every hit were the same amount of damage (and didn't instantly kill you), it would essentially give you 30% true damage reduction, comparable to MoM. The downside of Acro is 50% less armor and ES, that's massive. Compare taking MoM without the EB change, what's the downside? You pick up EB, slap on some decent ES on a few slots (which you're doing anyways), prioritize mana regen on gear (also already doing) and you're done. There was no actual downside to getting MoM other than picking the keystone and CoD bypasses that for those rich enough to get it.

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deusapollo wrote:

- force casters to wait after every fight until their ES recharged before moving on

That assumes that casters are or have to be EB builds which many aren't, and after rebalancing won't have to be. It just seems like this is the case because for whatever reason people on this thread can't imagine a caster without EB, but they exist and this change will allow for more of them.

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deusapollo wrote:

in conclusion this is a really bad idea, sorry guys. if u think AA and MoM are too strong, nerf them directly, but this is the wrong way to go.

It's not that AA and MoM are too strong, it's that EB made getting them worth it in almost every situation and/ getting them running didn't require investment that you weren't getting already.

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imcalledtyler wrote:

getting them running didn't require investment that you weren't getting already.

sorry, but that's simply wrong - if u use AA and MoM u need about twice as much manaregen than without it + enough max mana to compensate damagespikes. which means u need certain passive nodes, specifiv gear, etc.

if u're life based and use evasion instead of armor, Acrobatics equals 30% less damage without any drawbacks. so in this case it's actually the other way around

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imcalledtyler wrote:

That assumes that casters are or have to be EB builds which many aren't, and after rebalancing won't have to be. It just seems like this is the case because for whatever reason people on this thread can't imagine a caster without EB, but they exist and this change will allow for more of them.

Are you aware of some changes that will allow pure spell casters to play ES builds without needing to spend enormous amounts of currency to make said ES build viable?

Because currently the choices are life/EB (cheap option) and ES build (expensive option).