A potential change I'm keen to hear your thoughts on

"

Splift wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

sry youre just talking nonsense.

you say this is trying to balance between eb and non eb, I explain a very easy way to close the gap between eb and non eb then you turn around and say eb is either 100% you take it or not so if you balance between them then no one will take it? Wearing all that es gear to get extra mana and mana regen is what eb does, if theres effectiveness on it or not is completely irrelevant if it does what you need it to do, if its giving too much compared to not having it then you buff the base amount non users have and cut down the extra buff taking it gives you which makes it more balanced. That is so painfully obvious.

youre not even talking on a level someone can have a conversation with, theres no logic in what you are saying.

My point was if you close the gap like that and make mana viable then why run EB? You could just take acrobatics and run evade and not bother with all that es gear or do the same with armor etc.

"

Splift wrote:

If EB didnt exist the way it did they could tune things down change how AA works etc.

Balancing things with current EB in the picture is just fucked, eb will always win against non eb (usually) when we are talking about life casters.

you are contradicting yourself.


If you make mana viable then yes, that opens up ci casting more, it opens up acro casting more, it opens up hybrid life+es casting more, so why take eb? Because it elts you run higher arctic armour, lets you run higher cost spells than maybe you cna manage otherwise, alows you to run mom better etc, lots of reasons to still take it while giving lots of reasons you make take alternatives. It would be a far superior solution that destroys nothing and only adds diversity, rather than destroying far more than it adds, and it would be very simple, clean, elegant, unlike the suggested solution. the suggested mechanic could even be added on top as a new keystone with its own quirky behavior to open up yet more options.

"

Boem wrote:

Now what aura's do casters actually utilize?

- Reflect resistance aura
- double heralds most likely now (this might provoke a choice to drop to a single herald = good change)
- clarity (might get a re-balance of initial mana reservation)

its not what do they utilize, its what could they utilize.

all 3 solo resist auras + purity of elements
double herlads, sure
triple heralds and hatred with ek
clarity
discipline
haste
grace
determination
vitality...


I mean it would just be easier to say potentially everything except anger and wrath.



and yeah, MoM AA is not tanky compared to other defenses at all, its tanky compared to having virtually no defenses which is usually the other choice most casters are faced with, MoM AA or just no defenses, hardly any life, hardly any life regen, either do the cloak of D AA thing or be completely undefended basically.

"

Boem wrote:

Then your simply playing ranged/caster bad.

There is absolutely no need for those play-styles to ever get hit in this game.

Unlike melee which has to do it.

Another thing to note is that the top tree has mana regen and base intelligence. Melee has none of those, you can get roughly 60% mana increase total (reducing overal hp investment etc for very little return) and this %increase increases a base mana pool of maybe 300/400.(no intelligence bonus to mana etc etc) and 40% mana regeneration on a pathetic 20 mana regeneration base.

you don't even have the basic intelligence to run a clarity higher then lvl 12. (i dropped clarity eventually since it took more mana from my total pool for an increase of +16 mana regen per sec Trololol)

Do i need to continue to proof my point?

EB/MoM/AA is a pure caster/ranged heaven defense that allows extremely effective EHP pools when combined with kiting.

You know kiting, the thing your obviously not that good at if your getting surrounded with a non melee character. '-.-

Don't underestimate movement speed as a defense for ranged characters would be my advice to you. I made a ranger with 120% and i was doing 120% 78 maps with 3800 hp without any danger. Just because of positioning and ranged superiority.

Peace,

-Boem-

Im not entirely sure what point you are trying to make, thats not meant to be a dig btw Im just honestly not sure, but if you are saying that MoM EB AA in any way compares to Lightning Coil + high Evasion + Ondars + Phase Acrobatics + Life Regen in purely defensive terms for range or melee then I can only presume you havent properly tried the coil evasion route.

Either that or you have a 14,000 mana, 1000 mana per second regen, lvl40 arctic armour with inner force build that I had no idea even existed and have obviously never tried out.

Boem, there's no real point in antagonizing me. Even Ranged makes mistakes, there's leapers, chargers, closed areas, flicker, stun, freeze, lightning warp, bloodlines stuff, beyonders... And of course, boxes, desync, lag. So, yeah, even as ranged you're at risk, and it really only takes one time to die in HC.

A bit off topic, but that's the thing. As a caster, with VERY few exceptions, it's either MoM+AA or NOTHING. Forcing us into NOTHING won't be a healthy thing for the game, imo, especially for HC. If they make something like Acro easier to get for normal casters, Maybe that will be ok.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

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Aziraphale wrote:

The EB/AA/MoM meta is too tanky compared to everything else

it really isnt at all, ~I worry about people who say this tbh.

Having ran an EB+MOM+AA (level 25 AA with Inner Force) caster, my experience was that it was squishier compared to other characters I had. Take a few hits, mana goes to zero, and you can get killed after that. People say it's so easy to do, like no investment, but in reality- you have to take mana, mana regen on tree, stack ES on every item and 50% regen on amulet and rings to get it to work, have enough regen to cast your spells and for AA.. and you're still gonna be squishier than the other defences. On top of that, you also have to ditch at least one aura to free up unreserved mana. I also rerolled half-regen maps (never did that on any other build).

Compare all that to 2% mana leech on gloves, Lightning Coil, and 1 passive point to get Acro. DONE. As I've said, it's gonna take a very, very foolish exile to play anything other than bows in 2.0.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

and yeah, MoM AA is not tanky compared to other defenses at all, its tanky compared to having virtually no defenses which is usually the other choice most casters are faced with, MoM AA or just no defenses, hardly any life, hardly any life regen, either do the cloak of D AA thing or be completely undefended basically.

So why is this character running 76 with 100% modifiers on it at lvl 83 currently?



And dies like never?

I killed abaxoth yesterday in a 77 shrine for example with 90% modifiers. With 64%cold resis to top it off and 3.8k damage per projectile.

4% physical reduction, 75fire/64cold/78light etc maybe 8% evasion and phase/phase acro and 4k life.

Dual wielding as you can see, tabula rasa etc etc barely naked compared to other characters i have.

Just saying....

And yeah i think people should make choices on aura sacrificing if they wanna run EB/MoM that's a choice. Do i run grace this map or remove it for more buffer etc etc. AA is basically a cherry on top of a kiting defense system.(chill ground/effect + move speed on qaulity)

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

and yeah, MoM AA is not tanky compared to other defenses at all, its tanky compared to having virtually no defenses which is usually the other choice most casters are faced with, MoM AA or just no defenses, hardly any life, hardly any life regen, either do the cloak of D AA thing or be completely undefended basically.

So true. I was just going to make a long post about this, but I think you've got us covered. I'll just say that the reason Cloak is so popular is not because it's awesome, it's because casters have so few cheap defensive options. It's a shame that Cloak of Flame doesn't have more ES to make it worth considering over CoD.

"

Tempada wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

and yeah, MoM AA is not tanky compared to other defenses at all, its tanky compared to having virtually no defenses which is usually the other choice most casters are faced with, MoM AA or just no defenses, hardly any life, hardly any life regen, either do the cloak of D AA thing or be completely undefended basically.

So true. I was just going to make a long post about this, but I think you've got us covered. I'll just say that the reason Cloak is so popular is not because it's awesome, it's because casters have so few cheap defensive options. It's a shame that Cloak of Flame doesn't have more ES to make it worth considering over CoD.

Don't forget Spell mitigation. All due respect for LC or CoF, you need some form of that for end-game. And more EHP is one way around that, too.

I could barely handle the squishiness of playing a caster in the 1M league without MoM or Acro, or any real defensive layers, really.

"

Tempada wrote:

So true. I was just going to make a long post about this, but I think you've got us covered. I'll just say that the reason Cloak is so popular is not because it's awesome, it's because casters have so few cheap defensive options. It's a shame that Cloak of Flame doesn't have more ES to make it worth considering over CoD.

CoD is so popular, because you need to waste 12 passive points from Scion life wheel to MOM keystone. Something like 17 if you don't go to life wheel.

MOM+AA is needed because that's the defense that is available to life-based casters. Either MOM or play with no defense at all. After that, decision you have is spend 12 passive points for MOM or get Cloak.. obviously, everyone is gonna use Cloak. They need to move MOM to where it belongs.

@snorkle

I must probably be the only retard of a player in the entire PoE community that did extensive testing with MoM on the passive tree when it concern viability of it in the melee part of the passive tree.

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1140014/page/1

So please tell me i have no experience with the mechanics we are discussing because that's basically what i do in PoE.

Take mechanics, and push them to there limits.

I could link you a couple dozen builds i designed featuring all of the defensive mechanics PoE offers and all pushed to there limits and combination effectiveness vs efficiency.

And yes i made MoM/EB/AA casters and guess what, kiting is an active process, you design around it with complementary skills and play accordingly. Positioning and CC skills for mob control are mandatory if you wanna do it good. If you don't want to do that, expect to be punished for that lack of efforts.

And guess what, the intelligence part of the tree is associated with CC and avoidance skills to enable that kiting.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

toyotatundra wrote:

MOM+AA is needed because that's the defense that is available to life-based casters. It's either spend 12 points to get MOM or get Cloak..

Casters can take Phase Acro + AA + EB (my general preference; I hate MoM), they can use Lightning Coil, maybe throw in Saffell's Frame... These things just tend to take more money and brains to build around.