Im still not actually sure what you are trying to say here. Not saying any point you are making is wrong or that I disagree with you, I just dont actually know what your point regarding all this is and how it relates.
The tangent we were commenting on was "is EB MoM AA more or less tanky/survivable/whatever you want to call it than other mitigation methods" and the answer is basically less tanky, without a doubt less tanky than a number of other forms of mitigation that require the same of less investment.
you cna kite with anything, if you are saying kiting is better than actual defenses, yes Id agree to some extent kiting and playing well, manually evading damage as I sometimes call it is a major, major thing in this game. That doesnt really relate to the subject tho as anyone can kite, chilled ground from AA and a 7% movespeed buff does not make for a better kiter than Quickstep and the removal of move penalties from armour that Art of the Gladiator gives along with using Rats Nest or Devotos etc.
We were talking about what is a stronger defense, it has been put forward multiple times that MoM AA EB is overpowered because it is a stronger defense setup than everything else and that just isnt true, its not even close to being true.
first of all, if those other methods are more tanky like you make them out to be, why are you not utilizing them on your caster build?
acro/phase acro/coil/ondars guile are totally legit and viable to take with casters.
Basically your saying "yeah this method is less tanky then this method which is also perfectly viable with a caster"
your point being? Other then "ok so take those defensive options"
No clue why you are running EB/MoM/AA to begin with if those other options are strictly superior.
And my point is that EB/MoM/AA is an extremely versatile defensive form if done correctly for minimal investment against high burst damage. The only type of damage a ranged character should ever reliably sustain to begin with.
This becomes even more apparent when coupled with good CC ability's and distractions to soak up damage, which the intelligence tree is centered around.
It appears that for you guys the defensive form needs to be close to godlike in order to be considered. instead of just a reliable way to increase EHP value's and play accordingly.
nothing prevents you from sustaining a burst spike, losing all buffer on mana and retreating to regain that buffer other then the play-style mentality.
Peace,
-Boem-
edit : also depending on this implementation this opens up potential new synergy's between mechanics and as such new builds all together. While not necessarily reducing the effect on MoM/AA if done correctly.(tweaks of GGG and investment)
you completely misunderstand the conversation to be quite honest.
"acro/phase acro/coil/ondars guile are totally legit and viable to take with casters.
Basically your saying "yeah this method is less tanky then this method which is also perfectly viable with a caster""
no, those are not a viable investment for most casters, they do not provide the required mana regen to fuel skills and involve to be a trip into a different part of the tree. Some casters may possibly be able to spec those and run the Grace aura necessary, not many. Ive tried planning out casters that take superior defenses, you just cant do it with most of them, none of the ones Ive tried. You cna spec the nodes sure but you cant spec enough of the other things you need as well.
Casters use coils, sure, and they end up more tanky than COD users quite often, but in the vast majority of cases, all cases that I have seen, theyre not doing it while running grace and getting 11k evasion and speccing ondars and acro with phase acro and also getting 3%+ life regen and a 180% life build while getting enough mana regen to fuel themselves and the required amount of spell damage, cast speed and pen from the top of the tree to be effective dps casters.
The point being made was that EB AA MoM is not a great defense method at all, it is simply the best viable defense method for most casters and that is why it is so widely used. Its got nothing to do with "defense needs to be godly or we dont consider it", thats got absolutely nothing to do with anything and saying that tells me you have the wrong end of the stick.
The point was put forward, by many people, that EB MoM AA was the best defense method in the game and hence needed to be nerfed, we are saying thats not true, because its not true, thats all there was to it.
you are saying its enough, that its decent, that it does its job, yes absolutely, thats why I use it, thats why so many people use it, non eof us were arguing anything different in that regard.
Well, yeah, when so many builds are high fire resistance AoE fire casters, namely Flameblast; of course it is OP, for them, when the flat fire mitigation covers the reflect from hitting 20 billion monsters that all reflect, because flat AA amount > individual reflect amount.
It's pretty freakin meh for a non-fire caster in anything but qualitied up for move speed and chill.
If this whole thread is about the popularity of CoD + EB + AA, for hell's sake address the cause and no, that doesn't mean Flameblast, it means the reason that skill is so popular.
Casually casual.
Last edited by TheAnuhart on Apr 18, 2015, 4:34:33 PM
stopped at page 27, first time i rather appreciate reading reddit where useless "don't nerf" posts can be downvoted.
liked the opinions of metronomy and some others who brought deeper insights into consequences of this change.
one question to rory: is your aim to limit arctic armor so players aren't able to keep it up permanently?
age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill!
i think ur trying to indirectly nerf aa/mom builds. but this doesnt nerf MoM, only aa, actually its a massive buff to mom if u think about it. eb+mom+100%auras will be a thing, maybe with ZO or ghost reaver. this buffs alphas howl and CoD, the 2 most popular uniques atm imo. this would require like 2 or 3 nodes of investment LOL and u get soo many auras! this is absolutely broken.
currently, mom/aa builds are strong, but have a high opportunity cost, such as investing in multiple mana/regen nodes and missing out on some auras, which is huge. in fact, even with mom/aa, these builds are only on par with other a lot of other builds in terms of mitigation. eg. acro/phase/atziris step/ondars/grace/lightning coil/175% life from the tree is so sick right now, just avoid ek and bear traps.
not a fan of this change, auras or mom should always be a toss up.
Haven't read all 50+ pages. These posts sum up my sentiments exactly.
Seen from a 1.3 perspective, my reaction can only be: Hell NO.
I'll put my arc witch in with the mothballs now, no reason to try to better that one if this goes through.
Well, yeah, when so many builds are high fire resistance AoE fire casters, namely Flameblast; of course it is OP, for them, when the flat fire mitigation covers the reflect from hitting 20 billion monsters that all reflect, because flat AA amount > individual reflect amount.
It's pretty freakin meh for a non-fire caster in anything but qualitied up for move speed and chill.
If this whole thread is about the popularity of CoD + EB + AA, for hell's sake address the cause and no, that doesn't mean Flameblast, it means the reason that skill is so popular.
yeah but why is it the standard? Because its this super defense mechanism? No, not at all, its a comparatively shabby defense mechanism, its used because its the ONLY defense mechanism open to most life based casters.
Guess what? After this change it will STILL be the only defense mech most of them have, and you will still use a cloak, and you will still take eb, but now you also have to take either ZO and a ton of life regen or GR and get a load of life leech on top of even more mana regen to run arctic armour at 1/3 of the level you used it at before to end up a build that just doubled its point investment in defense to end up even weaker than before and guess what, you are still a COD EB AA life based caster build...
We solving problems here or are we just nerfing life based eb casters? Seems me me like its a nerf that doesnt come with a meta shift, because theres no other meta to shift into, and that is the reason why we have the COD EB AA MOM meta in the first place...
I feel like a lot of suggestions in this thread are trying to fix problems with the idea that the devs are actually trying to add. This is a nerf, I dont think they want to make this change and then flip it on its head so that it still works out the way it worked before, I feel like introducing these problems IS the idea, not a consequence of the idea.
If your goal is to make running even medium to high level Clarity+AA extremely difficult, guarantee nobody will ever pick up the Mind over Matter keystone, and nerf Cloak of Defiance into the ground, you will achieve it with these changes.
you completely misunderstand the conversation to be quite honest.
"acro/phase acro/coil/ondars guile are totally legit and viable to take with casters.
Basically your saying "yeah this method is less tanky then this method which is also perfectly viable with a caster""
no, those are not a viable investment for most casters, they do not provide the required mana regen to fuel skills and involve to be a trip into a different part of the tree. Some casters may possibly be able to spec those and run the Grace aura necessary, not many. Ive tried planning out casters that take superior defenses, you just cant do it with most of them, none of the ones Ive tried. You cna spec the nodes sure but you cant spec enough of the other things you need as well.
Casters use coils, sure, and they end up more tanky than COD users quite often, but in the vast majority of cases, all cases that I have seen, theyre not doing it while running grace and getting 11k evasion and speccing ondars and acro with phase acro and also getting 3%+ life regen and a 180% life build while getting enough mana regen to fuel themselves and the required amount of spell damage, cast speed and pen from the top of the tree to be effective dps casters.
The point being made was that EB AA MoM is not a great defense method at all, it is simply the best viable defense method for most casters and that is why it is so widely used. Its got nothing to do with "defense needs to be godly or we dont consider it", thats got absolutely nothing to do with anything and saying that tells me you have the wrong end of the stick.
The point was put forward, by many people, that EB MoM AA was the best defense method in the game and hence needed to be nerfed, we are saying thats not true, because its not true, thats all there was to it.
you are saying its enough, that its decent, that it does its job, yes absolutely, thats why I use it, thats why so many people use it, non eof us were arguing anything different in that regard.
No i am saying it will be decent even if these changes where to be implemented.
And your turning the argument around.
You stated that coil/phase acro/acro is far superior to EB/MoM/AA, so i am simply saying so use it with a caster.
That spark build i link uses it without coil. Really its not viable? That's weird my char seems to be performing perfectly acceptable even with 190% life specced in the passive tree to cover -8 rings and tabula rasa.
Putting on a 6-link coil would only push its defenses further.
And saying casters can't do it, when they are the least gear dependent of all characters since they scale of of gems is coming over as ludicrous from my point of view.
Gosh i wonder why those flameblasters where possible to use MoM/EB/AA and 75% block and spell block a patch ago, must be because they need to sacrifice so much for deeps and gear.
Yeah you need to plan your build and make sacrifices when designing it in order to be tanky and solid dps wise, gosh?
suddenly needing to make a balanced build is impossible or not worth the sacrifice?
I would simply say you don't understand the tools available to you, going of your statements of what is and is not possible with casters.
I am using a 6-link spark with 4.8 cast per sec with a phase/acro build and i still manage the mana cost with just a clarity. The end, that's it. and a freaking low intelligence base of 160 points. So it's not like i am scaling my mana true that.
Meh i am considering this discussion done. From my point of view you have not tested enough defenses and are completely ignoring skill gem based defenses if your only argument is
"AA/MOM/EB is the only viable caster defense in PoE at the moment"
It's even more of a pointless argument considering it wont even be broken with this change but whatever.
Peace, have at it,
-Boem-
Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
you completely misunderstand the conversation to be quite honest.
"acro/phase acro/coil/ondars guile are totally legit and viable to take with casters.
Basically your saying "yeah this method is less tanky then this method which is also perfectly viable with a caster""
no, those are not a viable investment for most casters, they do not provide the required mana regen to fuel skills and involve to be a trip into a different part of the tree. Some casters may possibly be able to spec those and run the Grace aura necessary, not many. Ive tried planning out casters that take superior defenses, you just cant do it with most of them, none of the ones Ive tried. You cna spec the nodes sure but you cant spec enough of the other things you need as well.
Casters use coils, sure, and they end up more tanky than COD users quite often, but in the vast majority of cases, all cases that I have seen, theyre not doing it while running grace and getting 11k evasion and speccing ondars and acro with phase acro and also getting 3%+ life regen and a 180% life build while getting enough mana regen to fuel themselves and the required amount of spell damage, cast speed and pen from the top of the tree to be effective dps casters.
The point being made was that EB AA MoM is not a great defense method at all, it is simply the best viable defense method for most casters and that is why it is so widely used. Its got nothing to do with "defense needs to be godly or we dont consider it", thats got absolutely nothing to do with anything and saying that tells me you have the wrong end of the stick.
The point was put forward, by many people, that EB MoM AA was the best defense method in the game and hence needed to be nerfed, we are saying thats not true, because its not true, thats all there was to it.
you are saying its enough, that its decent, that it does its job, yes absolutely, thats why I use it, thats why so many people use it, non eof us were arguing anything different in that regard.
No i am saying it will be decent even if these changes where to be implemented.
And your turning the argument around.
You stated that coil/phase acro/acro is far superior to EB/MoM/AA, so i am simply saying so use it with a caster.
That spark build i link uses it without coil. Really its not viable? That's weird my char seems to be performing perfectly acceptable even with 190% life specced in the passive tree to cover -8 rings and tabula rasa.
Putting on a 6-link coil would only push its defenses further.
And saying casters can't do it, when they are the least gear dependent of all characters since they scale of of gems is coming over as ludicrous from my point of view.
Gosh i wonder why those flameblasters where possible to use MoM/EB/AA and 75% block and spell block a patch ago, must be because they need to sacrifice so much for deeps and gear.
Yeah you need to plan your build and make sacrifices when designing it in order to be tanky and solid dps wise, gosh?
suddenly needing to make a balanced build is impossible or not worth the sacrifice?
I would simply say you don't understand the tools available to you, going of your statements of what is and is not possible with casters.
I am using a 6-link spark with 4.8 cast per sec with a phase/acro build and i still manage the mana cost with just a clarity. The end, that's it. and a freaking low intelligence base of 160 points. So it's not like i am scaling my mana true that.
Meh i am considering this discussion done. From my point of view you have not tested enough defenses and are completely ignoring skill gem based defenses if your only argument is
"AA/MOM/EB is the only viable caster defense in PoE at the moment"
It's even more of a pointless argument considering it wont even be broken with this change but whatever.
Peace, have at it,
-Boem-
absolutely nothing you just said is relevant to what I was saying, every point of mine you have 'countered' doesnt exist and you are countering something I wasnt saying at all. Spark is a build based around projectile damage, projectile speed and skill duration which are all available in the evasion corner of the tree so of course those builds can spec the other stuff in that area. Spark is not "most casters", I didnt say every caster, I said most, for MOST caster builds they have no other good options and that is why COD EB AA is so widely used, and the proof of that is the fact that it is so widely used while being weaker than the defenses attack characters in the bottom of the tree can spec.
you are literally having a disagreement with something you just made up in your own head that doesnt relate at all to the conversation taking place prior to you entering it with a responses that didnt make any sense and still doesnt make any sense. Im not turning an argument around, what you are saying has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation you started responding to.
Why take one of path of exile's most elegantly designed and iconic keystones and turn it into a clusterfuck.
If eldritch battery is too good, why not "turns ES into mana at [multiplier] effectiveness" or another clean nerf.
Spoiler
If cloak is the problem, why not nerf cloak and spare those of us who actually use the keystone.
pretty much this. I traverse the entire tree and just to get the mom and ir keystones and on top of that spec most of my points into life/es/mana/regen nodes to make that defence work well in end game maps. Its not just that "half assed slapped cod + eb " that is for some reason portrayed as being so OP.
