Spectal Throw is not in line with melee

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Startkabels wrote:

Oops sorry

Don't feel bad, I missed it the first time too.

And I want that unique you made, just so I can see an eternal orb drop.

The Problem of ST is not the offensive part! (although the multiple shotgunning is also a strong + for using ST).

The Problem is that in beeing ranged, you can forgo so many defensive options you need to take otherwise using other melee skills (oneshotting mobs, overcapping lifeleech, block, armor or evasion, higher life buffer).

Its not that ST is too strong, its the only viable midgame option without going fulldef until merciless.

When I play melee I want to specc into dmg, but when not using ST its not viable in early merc until you get decent gear imho.

I disagree is not only the defensive part, its the defensive part in combination with potentially better offense, depending how you use ST.

If you are going for a ST build specifically you can build your char around it and you will have better defense AND better offense.

You already explained defense. Offense because ST usually does more or less the same damage as your melee skills since ST has about the same synergies with the passive tree as most melee skills. And because ST has superior AoE. And because its very cheap to use mana wise. And because the projectiles return making you able to kite very easily. All those things and more probably

If you're only using ST as a leveling skill then I can imagine that at some point your melee attack does more damage yes.

Ok, after looking through this forum, I feel I absolutely have to put my thoughts down.

First off, I love playing melee. I have died on my melee characters to some pretty crazy mechanics. First off, Shrapnelbearer's shotgunning chaos nova when he takes damage. Then there was temple piety doing absurd damage to me when her heralds stacked on me because I was closest to her. Those events made me scream imbalance.

Spectral throw, I have to, for the most part agree with this thread. My current build uses molten strike. I have both point blank and iron grip now. So spectral throw is useless. But if I didn't have point blank, I would be forced to continue using spectral throw.

A melee build that has no ranged capability needs it. I am forced to have spectral throw.

This is the problem with balance. Until I had a saffell's frame and an immortal call setup, I carried an increased AoE ground slam for range as well. I dropped it after buffing my defenses. A spectral thrower can get away with much less effective health and much worse gear. I run around with 6k hp, 40% armor+ 40% evasion. I have 54% block, 27% spellblock, and I carry 6 endurance charges.

I have to stack all this and I still am afraid of 1 shot mechanics. This is the problem with melee. This is why we use spectral throw.

Spectral throw, in no way, ever did more damage than molten strike did. It did more damage than cleave, sure, but not more than molten. Because as I leveled I specced into it. I agree that utility is the reason spectral throw is used.

Finally, I do also have to mention the horror of Low Life. I think we are all well-aware that a Shavronne's Wrappings has the potential to make any build absurdly powerful. I think that's the broken part of the Low-Life Spectral Throw meta. Also consider it takes 100+ exalts to build that character. Also consider that Havoc has killed himself 2 times on that build. It is too powerful and I am phenomenally jealous. But I would build 10 different things with that kind of money because that kind of power ruins the fun of the game for me.

Also

@nathaniel123 and you forgot the dagger mechanic as the 3rd piece of op mechanic that is being abused in this combination with ST most of the time.

Daggers are outperforming all other 1 hand weapons (besides wands that come close to it in some other builds) and are on the top of this pyramid.


The fact that an ambusher does just the same amount of damage as a corsair sword (both highest attack speed sword/dagger), while the dagger got this big crit chance buff, is just stupid. Also the dagger nodes seem a bit op.



I stronlgy suggest (repeatedly) to let LMP/GMP have a crit chance/multiplier or even accuracy debuff just the same way as it has a debuff for pure damage to take crit builds more into account with this. Then, spells could be rebuffed again too and LMP/GMP would not be the must use gem for ranged attacks/spells that it is now anymore.


Of course daggers need nerfs, low life needs fix (dont know if snapshotting is enough), and in the end one can see if still anything needs to be changed with ST.

Not in my opinion, you're saying it yourself: Daggers are OP when used with ST.

It's ST that's the problem not daggers nor dagger nodes.

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LSN wrote:

I stronlgy suggest (repeatedly) to let LMP/GMP have a crit chance/multiplier or even accuracy debuff just the same way as it has a debuff for pure damage to take crit builds more into account with this. Then, spells could be rebuffed again too and LMP/GMP would not be the must use gem for ranged attacks/spells that it is now anymore.

You're right. Making a change like that that hasn't been thought out properly WOULD make LMP/GMP not be must have. Every single ranged projectile user in the game would switch to split arrow / spark (or to a non-projectile skill), and all other ranged bow attack builds would be worthless.

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LSN wrote:

@nathaniel123 and you forgot the dagger mechanic as the 3rd piece of op mechanic that is being abused in this combination with ST most of the time.

Daggers are outperforming all other 1 hand weapons (besides wands that come close to it in some other builds) and are on the top of this pyramid.


The fact that an ambusher does just the same amount of damage as a corsair sword (both highest attack speed sword/dagger), while the dagger got this big crit chance buff, is just stupid. Also the dagger nodes seem a bit op.



I stronlgy suggest (repeatedly) to let LMP/GMP have a crit chance/multiplier or even accuracy debuff just the same way as it has a debuff for pure damage to take crit builds more into account with this. Then, spells could be rebuffed again too and LMP/GMP would not be the must use gem for ranged attacks/spells that it is now anymore.


Of course daggers need nerfs, low life needs fix (dont know if snapshotting is enough), and in the end one can see if still anything needs to be changed with ST.

Daggers indeed are OP compared to other weapons, mostly because of dagger nodes and mod pool. Among all melee weapons, only daggers and claws have interesting, powerful, game-changing nodes specific to weapon class. What do swords, axes, maces, staves and sceptres have? Literally NOTHING, except of few "general" damage nodes.
With that approach, daggers and claws will always be superior. In my opinion, EVERY weapon class should have unique nodes with unique benefit (like superior life leech for claws).

GMP and LMP are fine for ATTACKS, but are indeed OP for SPELLS (because of shotgun). I believe there should be two different versions of LMP/GMP - one for spells, and another - for attacks, each one balanced for specific use. ATM, spells, that can shotgun (fireball, freezing pulse, etc) require LMP/GMP as absolutely mandatory gem, as it increases damage output by 110-150% (not counting damage and speed bossts from leveling/quality).

ST is OP attack skill itself, not because of supports. In fact, supports for ST are generally weaker, than for melee skills, but still, ST outperforms them usually. The only melee skill, that matches ST in terms of power, is Flicker Strike. But it inflicts drastical desync, lag, and has many other limitations. Despite of that, its raw DPS power and movement ability are just insane.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

Daggers indeed are OP compared to other weapons, mostly because of dagger nodes and mod pool. Among all melee weapons, only daggers and claws have interesting, powerful, game-changing nodes specific to weapon class. What do swords, axes, maces, staves and sceptres have? Literally NOTHING, except of few "general" damage nodes.
With that approach, daggers and claws will always be superior. In my opinion, EVERY weapon class should have unique nodes with unique benefit (like superior life leech for claws).

What are you referring to?

-Swords: Accuracy
-Axes: most DPS
-maces: Stun
-Staves: Block chance
-Scepters: Elemental damage

All of these implicit mods can be build around and all of these weapons have notables in the passive tree too.

I've played with daggers many times, they are not OP at all nor are its nodes. They become OP when they're used with ST when you build around crit chance in particular.

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Startkabels wrote:

What are you referring to?

-Swords: Accuracy
-Axes: most DPS
-maces: Stun
-Staves: Block chance
-Scepters: Elemental damage

All of these implicit mods can be build around and all of these weapons have notables in the passive tree too.

I've played with daggers many times, they are not OP at all nor are its nodes. They become OP when they're used with ST when you build around crit chance in particular.

Accuracy is a useless mod on swords, it's a middle finger in the face to anyone who uses a sword.

Axes, most DPS? Where? How?
2h axes have the highest paper DPS, they're still outperformed in real DPS by daggers.
1h axes got nothing.

Just compare the dagger/claw implicit mods with the other ones mentioned here, it's hilarious how it's unbalanced.

Building around those implicit mods is not an argument at all and it can be seen in the situation in the game, daggers provide the highest DPS/best clear speed, which means that the other ones are lackluster.

Daggers are OP, because crit is OP, and it gets even better with ST.