Spectal Throw is not in line with melee

Daggers dont give the highest clear spead at all, you're probably thinking about a crit build with ST or something.

Crit is not OP at all either, you will have to invest in crit al lot. In combination with ST is is yes.

As I mentioned, I've had many characters with daggers and in my experience with life build mainly 2 handed weapons have the highest clear speed in general.

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Xendran wrote:

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LSN wrote:

I stronlgy suggest (repeatedly) to let LMP/GMP have a crit chance/multiplier or even accuracy debuff just the same way as it has a debuff for pure damage to take crit builds more into account with this. Then, spells could be rebuffed again too and LMP/GMP would not be the must use gem for ranged attacks/spells that it is now anymore.

You're right. Making a change like that that hasn't been thought out properly WOULD make LMP/GMP not be must have. Every single ranged projectile user in the game would switch to split arrow / spark (or to a non-projectile skill), and all other ranged bow attack builds would be worthless.

spells and bow skills can be counter balanced. Split arrow can be adapted as well.

Back then when all spells were nerfed it was probably a mistake to not do it via giving lmp/gmp/chain some crit/accuracy penalties.


Obviously LMP/GMP are not thought through properly now. They give damage penalties that do not take crit/accuracy into account. I dare to say (with only few ranged/spell experience in this game) that spells would not have needed a global nerf back then.

Intstead of giving chain/gmp/lmp a 30/50% less projectile damage modifier (this penalty could be reduced) I strongly suggest to move some of the penalty into penalize crit chance/multiplier or even accuracy (needs to be tested, what works best). This way, the natural superiority of crit vs RT builds could adressed too.

The huge problem of PoE has always been ranged gmp/lmp + chain builds that crit shot whole screens of monsters. Most spells could probably be buffed again from 4% base crit to 6% and bow skills modified/increased too. I have throught this through very well.



@tinko: 100% right. I am a sword user and I feel like there is no reason for me to continue playing this game if I don't switch to a dagger/low life build.

How is crit unbalanced with RT?

RT means you can drop all accuracy and invest in something else like more DPS.

In my experience with life based melee, RT is often the best choice..

I think you guys are losing focus here and start complaining about all kinds of other skills.

The problem is ST and that's what this topic is about, please stay ontopic of post your own thread about other mechanics and skills.

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Startkabels wrote:

How is crit unbalanced with RT?

RT means you can drop all accuracy and invest in something else like more DPS.

In my experience with life based melee, RT is often the best choice..

I think you guys are losing focus here and start complaining about all kinds of other skills.

The problem is ST and that's what this topic is about, please stay ontopic of post your own thread about other mechanics and skills.

"The huge problem of PoE has always been ranged gmp/lmp + chain builds that crit shot whole screens of monsters."

This applies to ST as well as formerly spells (which were base nerfed to ground some time ago instead of nerfing the actual problem) and bow skills.

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Startkabels wrote:

How is crit unbalanced with RT?

With RT, you avoid accuracy issues, but your damage will be limited, because you are missing some damage multipliers (crit chance, crit multi).
So you'll probably be stuck somewhere at 40-50k dps with very good gear.

With crit, the dps doesnt seem to be limited at all (6 digit numbers at least).

So one could call this an imbalance (I don't think it's too much of an issue, DpS is mostly epeen comparison).

Naw, DPS is not epeen comparison. It goes as far as 2 ST guys clear 78 map bosses within 5-10 seconds while other builds can not even fight them on the hard mods without dieing. It goes as far as doing atziri or uber atziri is only possible to do in a safe way with a ranged + crit build. This makes it rather sensless to do anything else or to continue playing any build in endgame that does not abuse these mechanics.

Crit scales way too high in this game. Especially the problem it is in combination with LMP/GMP/Chain. Therefore these support gems should take crit somehow into account in their penalties and the game should be rebalanced around this.

This is not even as big of a deal as many of you may think. It will be easy to create a better balance for the game than the one that is existing now by just using your calculater and with no testing being done.

If GGG does a bit testing then, stuff can get really balanced out in detail. The now state is just as bad as it can get anyway, balance-wise.





"I think you guys are losing focus here and start complaining about all kinds of other skills.

The problem is ST and that's what this topic is about, please stay ontopic of post your own thread about other mechanics and skills."


It is funny how a noob gets offended by the fact that he does not have enough informations to understand what others write and therefore denies it (really sorry to say so).

ST probably would almost be completely fine if LMP/GMP + crit didn't overpower it that much.

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Startkabels wrote:

Daggers dont give the highest clear spead at all, you're probably thinking about a crit build with ST or something.

Crit is not OP at all either, you will have to invest in crit al lot. In combination with ST is is yes.

As I mentioned, I've had many characters with daggers and in my experience with life build mainly 2 handed weapons have the highest clear speed in general.

I'm thinking about a good dagger builds, which are crit builds, and yes they do give the highest clear speed, no contest. And ST makes the gap even larger.

So your argument on crit not being OP is investing a lot? Really?
First of all, it's not that lot at all, it takes medium investment to top RT in DPS and survivability, with more investment the gap increases.

You were doing it wrong then.

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Startkabels wrote:

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

Daggers indeed are OP compared to other weapons, mostly because of dagger nodes and mod pool. Among all melee weapons, only daggers and claws have interesting, powerful, game-changing nodes specific to weapon class. What do swords, axes, maces, staves and sceptres have? Literally NOTHING, except of few "general" damage nodes.
With that approach, daggers and claws will always be superior. In my opinion, EVERY weapon class should have unique nodes with unique benefit (like superior life leech for claws).

What are you referring to?

-Swords: Accuracy
-Axes: most DPS
-maces: Stun
-Staves: Block chance
-Scepters: Elemental damage

All of these implicit mods can be build around and all of these weapons have notables in the passive tree too.

I've played with daggers many times, they are not OP at all nor are its nodes. They become OP when they're used with ST when you build around crit chance in particular.

1. I told not about implicits, i told about SKILL NODES.

Accuracy is almost useless, as any sane sword user gets RT anyway. Only crit builds dont take RT, and those obviously wont use swords (as swords give low crit chance).

Axes give most "base DPS" on weapon, but since their nodes suck, axes' DPS dont shine compared to even non-crit weapons. Also, there is an itemization issue, since perfect weapon will ALWAYS have 2/6 crit-related mods (increased local crit chance and either accuracy or crit multiplier, and as i said, accuracy is required only for crit builds = crit stat).

Maces provide stun, ok, there is something in it, if invest REALLY DEEP into it. But with perfect dagger, you will stun just because of your extreme damage, and will kill much faster = maces suck there too.

Staves - even with all possible investment, block chance cant be capped with staves = staves suck compared to 1-hander and shield. Also, staves have higher crit chance and lower DPS, thus requiring crit build, but you cant invest deeply into both block and crit.

Sceptres - WED node is barely worth taking, lol.


Daggers ARE OP, just compare the number of perfect daggers on market to other weapons... Well, not daggers themselves, but their nodes. Without weapon-specific nodes, daggers, claws and sceptres are almost in line with each other.

ST is OP too, so using dagger with ST makes the gap larger.

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ST probably would almost be completely fine if LMP/GMP + crit didn't overpower it that much.

If this is true, why other ranged skills dont became so OP with LMP/GMP? And why melee skills dont became so OP with daggers and crit investment?

When you stack several OP mechanics together, you receive even more OP mechanic, that's it.

This topic is about how Spectal Throw is not inline with melee in my opinion.

Please stay ontopic

I play only melee and disagree with crit or daggers or LMP/GMP are disbalanced.

They might be with other builds (like ST).

But again: This build is about Spectal Throw in the light of melee, please keep it that way!

I dont want to start a sub discussion about daggers or crit or LMP/GMP, you can discuss those but only ontopic not as a completely different discussion.

I will report you when you keep posting offtopic.

Sweet.

You should notice that the normally utilized support gems and weapons with a skill (which is lmp/gmp + dagger with ST) are inevitably connected with the function of the skill itself and therefore must be considered when rebalancing a skill like ST.