Legacy items

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deteego wrote:

You have to alter every single mod for every item, its not just alter item, its alter item*number of mods

Of course, this is completely ignoring how the database is indexed, and how many joins need to be done.

That, and if we are going to be consistant, we should nerf every single legacy item. May not be a lot of Kaoms, but how about silver branches?

Of course, there are a lot of operations to do on each item. But even millions of operations are fast enough on modern software / hardware. The game wouldn't die if the 1.00 downtime would take half an hour more than it has.

What I'm saying is that these changes are technically possible in a realistic time (it wouldn't take days to execute), even given a really complex database model (which this game has). Ofc it would need a few days of work to prepare everything, but not to execute it.

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morbo wrote:

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deteego wrote:

You have to alter every single mod for every item, its not just alter item, its alter item*number of mods

Of course, this is completely ignoring how the database is indexed, and how many joins need to be done.

That, and if we are going to be consistant, we should nerf every single legacy item. May not be a lot of Kaoms, but how about silver branches?

Of course, there are a lot of operations to do on each item. But even millions of operations are fast enough on modern software / hardware. The game wouldn't die if the 1.00 downtime would take half an hour more than it has.

What I'm saying is that these changes are technically possible in a realistic time (it wouldn't take days to execute), even given a really complex database model (which this game has).

You do realize there is a reason why online games, when do do non trivial maintenance, often take the game down for hours? You are just looking at the transaction in isolation of everything else that needs to be done

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deteego wrote:

You do realize there is a reason why online games, when do do non trivial maintenance, often take the game down for hours? You are just looking at the transaction in isolation of everything else that needs to be done

When doing things that have long term implications on your game (legacys will be here forever), longer downtimes are justified. If removing legacys would be the right thing to do, then it should be done regardless if it would take a few hours more. Its not something "technically impossible" that would kill the game.

GGG just chose not to because that's the right (lesser evil) decision.

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DarkTl wrote:

^Not true. Every country/city/museum has something unique. Does any player has something legacy? No.

This isn't remotely true. Just about every player who made it to Brutus had at least one legacy item drop for them:

Any player who has an Onyx amulet with stats higher than 16 has a legacy, or a prismatic ring above 10%, or a Rustic Sash with +3-5% instead of 12-24%, or a two handed weapon that dropped prior to the buff and wasn't re-rolled.

So - just about everyone who was playing had a legacy item, and almost every single one had a legacy item drop for them. Whether they kept them or not is their own decision - which is also one of the unfounded common gripes.

It would be like someone complaining about only making fifteen million dollars on selling a Picasso painting they found in a yard sale, when they could have held on to it and sold it for 100 million if they had only known a couple famous museums were going to burn down and make the Picassos even rarer.

The last few days before the big legacy changes the price of several uniques shot up and a lot of people were excited about the "profit" they made, only to be dismayed when they saw those prices continue to rise.

GGG should not have to answer for player regrets that were caused by the player's own greed, or the player's lack of efforts to acquire the legacy items. A lot (not saying all or even most) of the people that currently have the highly valued legacy items never found them in the first place - they traded for them.

Trading for them is still possible now. Yes, prices have gone up for them, but they have gone up for just about everything because of the way temporary leagues drop into Standard and Hardcore.


As for being able to obtain a legacy item:

Anyone playing on standard can get something like this (which is a non-unique with quantity):



After the current leagues end, GGG is likely to make a decision on keeping quantity, if I recall the gist of their comments on the current temporary leagues being an experiment to see how altering quantity works out. If that is the case, and they do drop quantity from possible mods on non-unique items, than those silly gloves will become legacy items. Right now anyone playing standard can still get those mods.

So, any player can get still get "legacy" items if they just hang onto things that might change instead of selling them.

I have yet to read of anyone complaining that it just isn't fair that they can't get a rustic sash with 3-5% physical damage boost to drop.

Why is that? If they are genuinely concerned about "balance" shouldn't those all be complained about and re-rolled?

What about all the characters who leveled up and were retired and never got any eternal orb drops because the eternal orbs didn't exist when they were playing?

Should GGG go back and redo all the drops and issue some eternal orbs to them because it would balance things out?

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Juguard wrote:

No logic in that. People can play lottery in other countries.. Paintings? No painter/artist paints the same painting. Each country has something special, not just the Egyptians. We can play other games, regardless of whether PoE exists or not.

There are bigger problems in the game, than the Legacy items. Spending over 1000 Fuse orbs and not be able to get 6L is one of them. But that's a different matter.

There are places with no lotteries at all like Alaska and Iran.

People can find other Glorius armors besides Kaom's, and they can still find Shavronne's Wrappings. They aren't exactly the same, or as valuable, but then neither are the paintings or the other lotteries.

The legacy items are only a problem for people who dwell on what they cannot have.

I agree the game has much more important things to work on, which is why I am taking the time to refute things in here.

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morbo wrote:

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deteego wrote:

You do realize there is a reason why online games, when do do non trivial maintenance, often take the game down for hours? You are just looking at the transaction in isolation of everything else that needs to be done

When doing things that have long term implications on your game (legacys will be here forever), longer downtimes are justified. If removing legacys would be the right thing to do, then it should be done regardless if it would take a few hours more. Its not something "technically impossible" that would kill the game.

GGG just chose not to because that's the right (lesser evil) decision.

There are "long term implications" of all sorts of game items and mechanics. Faster run has implications, allowing players to party has implications. Some players having better computers than others has implications. The long term "implications" of legacy items is not bad and it is minimal in standard/HC league, and non-existent in current leagues.

If GGG were to continually (let's say once every league change) remove and nerf/buff all "legacy" items, they would seriously tick off a significant part of their supporter base.

There is a reason Standard league is not called legacy league and that same logic applies. There are plenty of players who don't care at all about what other players have, or having a new fresh economy or legacy items. They do care a LOT about the characters they have invested a large amount of time in. They care about those characters items.

Many would complain. Many would just silently walk away from PoE and not come back.

Anyone who must have a fresh, currently balanced economy can play in either of the two current leagues.

There were uniques that dropped only in Onslaught that are legacy now. There will be items from the current leagues (the Taming for example) that will be legacy when Domination ends.

There are graphically different race rewards that are legacy, and some that will be legacy in the future. They will command some very nice trade values.

Should GGG take those away too?

If everyone seriously cared about fairness and everyone being able to get something to drop, those would have to be removed.

The lack of consistency in this type of approach* is the hallmark of people who are either being dishonest with themselves, not seeing the whole picture, or being dishonest with others.



*Not saying your post, because I don't know if you would agree or disagree on removing all race items, etc.


I don't think GGG's decision is the lesser evil at all. Look at the percentage of people playing in Standard league. Why are they still playing in a league that doesn't have a fresh balanced economy and the new features?

Why do players even care about having flaming skulls or black cat pets or any other graphical MTX when it doesn't affect game play?

Why do so many players want self-found? Why do so many players play solo? Why do so many players dislike trading?

***part** of the answers to each of these questions is that many RPG and ARPG players are seeking something different than just challenge, competition and balance.

Some of the reasons:

They like their characters. They like what they have found. They like finding things on their own (echoed in the people who posted in this thread that they know they can buy legacy items, but want to be able to find them.) They are attached to their characters and are invested in them.

Far more players would feel harmed than helped by taking away legacy uniques. The game mechanics would be broken if they reversed legacy item changes.

Temporary leagues are the answer to that on-going problem. It will be a problem in the future, even if GGG finds a way to easily update all potentially legacy items.

Let me give a very simple example:

A player with a level 80+ Standard character has their build and gear set up so that they have 75% resists on everything including Chaos. The character can run mid level maps and usually survive. The character is not wealthy and the person playing it only has 5-10 hours to play each week and will not be getting wealthy in the future.

The player really likes that character. The character is relying on legacy Rainbow strides because of the 20% resist all and fast run.

GGG nerfs and balances all Rainbow Strides.

That character now has 63% elemental resists. Instead of taking 25% of incoming elemental damage, that character is taking 37% of incoming damage. This is almost a 50% boost in damage done. The character begins dying in many maps. The player really can't afford to redo all the character gear, because what they can afford to do will drop their life level and/or cost them chaos resistance.

The player feels that character is effectively dead.

Is that fair and balanced?

A much simpler example:

Fus Ro Dah!

Did anyone really care about whether that Skyrim shout was balanced?

People loved it because it was FUN!

This game is and should be about having fun - for both short term (temp league) and long term (standard league) type players.


End of Line.

You have a point. Still

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DalaiLama wrote:

If that is the case, and they do drop quantity from possible mods on non-unique items, than those silly gloves will become legacy items. Right now anyone playing standard can still get those mods.

this will be ridiculous. They might as well rename standard league to legacy league then. Because unlike prismatic rings above 10%, these items are useful to everyone, and they are very common. I think that either GGG will never remove iiq completly (nerf will do the trick), or reroll existing ones so they won't have it (another qq thread, much longer than this one, if unique legacies won't be rerolled as well).

It's kinda funny, all these posts and threads and not a single good, solid reason to leave legacy items in was given, two of the best so far include:
- technical difficulties, but not impossibilities (dubious until devs take us on a database tour)
- you jelly?

While most agree legacy items have significant negative game influence including but not limited to:
- economy
- pvp
- player psychology
- game balance (both current and future)

Perhaps that's the reason these threads aren't really that interesting, no ground for a decent argument.

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raics wrote:

It's kinda funny, all these posts and threads and not a single good, solid reason to leave legacy items in was given, two of the best so far include:
- technical difficulties, but not impossibilities (dubious until devs take us on a database tour)
- you jelly?

While most agree legacy items have significant negative game influence including but not limited to:
- economy
- pvp
- player psychology
- game balance (both current and future)

Perhaps that's the reason these threads aren't really that interesting, no ground for a decent argument.

If you would have read the last page, you would have seen arguments.

Btw, player psychology applies to both sides of this. PvP is a joke, do you play PoE for its PvP ? Wrong game.
There is no balance in PvP whatsoever, and it will never be consistent.
Now I don't see how economy will be impacted in a bad way, there will be a fixed/decreased amount of some items with a ridiculously high price, so what ? Let people buy them for such prices, the current version will still be expensive, and will still drop.
There is no inflation out of that, inflation is when ones create currency. An item is worth to many player, so some other people are going to give more currency for it, that does not inflate the market however.

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Fruz wrote:

If you would have read the last page, you would have seen arguments.

Don't worry about me, I've probably read all these threads since silverbranch.

Sorry, all those are rock-solid reasons:
- Economy clearly is adversely affected, inflation isn't the only harmful economic influence, nobody even mentioned it.
- PvP is there, it's not relevant now but if it ever becomes so, it would do well for devs to remember there isn't a single game in existence that's serious about pvp and allows legacy items, it's not a question of balance, that's a basic rule. Sadly, I can't envision them bothering to implement the restriction.
- Player psychology does work both ways but only for players present at the time of nerf, and the other way work only for legacy item owners, influence on the rest of community and any new players is far more significant.
- Current balance aside, take a look at new uniques, a bland bunch, aren't they? Since they can't go about fixing them anymore they make them on the safe side, locking an aspect of the game halts development.

All you can try to do is invalidate those reasons, but you can't provide a single good one on 'why are legacy items good for the game?'