What builds are actually better off not starting from the Scion?

I think you've kinda derailed the discussion...

This is the sequence of events:

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RogueMage wrote:

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Invalesco wrote:

...the duelist doesn't really suffer that much of a disadvantage when it's so close to the circle of life to begin with.

The "Circle of Life" between the Scion and Duelist areas is overrated. Of its 10 Increased Max Life nodes, only one is +12%, the rest are only +8%. Better skill-point efficiency can be gained by cherry-picking Duelist, Marauder, and Templar clusters that offer +10% and higher Life nodes.

The following 101-point Marauder build features +3 Endurance Charges, +36% Endurance Charge duration, +34% Chance to Block with Shields, +92% Fire Resist, +95% Lightning Resist, and 222% Increased Max Life. Starting and Scion or investing more than 3 points in the Circle of Life would only degrade its other defensive attributes:

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgEAxthYY1BQjM_2SF8_VEnnUu8Oud3yL0TnqBhqHtlhGS5XDSft-6rSIZHOrKqgtJ7NcqlZ86cwfNnAGgHnFCCQVWaeNuify1BHp4T60livZKMaOB0UcH14DRpV7DhMNY9GqZWAVqluYSE62CjF0NBPfdE2tfKE7xLhTdgt0vO-z2VRYG6qNZJ07ZuDouqePIx2nz5VxkrIrFl671PfgW-Kr4jxYEtY26yvBLMFLYTZ55EUTfAfQKBlTW5pw4aiAJ65R36-p8S41fgaMg==

I bolded the relevant parts. Our discussion was about the circle of life:

I countered by saying that the circle of life is NOT overrated.

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Invalesco wrote:

1. 222% increased max life is considered extremely low for any HC melee build

2. Also, some players actually do want to grab dps nodes instead of just block

3. resist passives are not that great when you can max out resists from just gear alone

4. keeping in mind point no. 3, 13 points from your example to get 38% incr. life and 1.9 life regen at the mara area isn't more point-effective than 10 points to get 56% increased life, 2% incr. life regen and even 12% incr. physical damage from the circle of life and the 2 1% life regen nodes in templar + duelist area.

and then you decided to move the discussion to a scion, when the scion wasn't the reason for the discussion in the first place.

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RogueMage wrote:

These are all valid points, especially for a HC build. But to get to the Circle of Life from the Scion start (to grab the Scion's block nodes), you have to take either the +18% Resist cluster or the +6% Melee Damage cluster. I play SC, prefer max Block Chance over additional Life, and my personal preference is to take the 30% Reduced Enemy Critical Strike cluster in the Marauder start. And if I needed less Lightning resist, I could also take the two 1% Life Regen nodes in the Templar and Duelist areas, as you suggest, for a total of 5.4% Life Regen.

After which I tried to get the discussion back on track.

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Invalesco wrote:

Ya, but weren't we talking about the duelist?

I have already acknowledged that the only classes that don't suffer are duelists, maras and non-caster templars because they all have easy access to the circle of life anyway.

to no avail... as you seemed to shift the discussion over to the mara instead.

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RogueMage wrote:

No problem, if I wanted some Increased Melee Damage and a bit less Life or Reists, I could start at the Duelist and grab an extra 27% Melee Physical Damage. But the Marauder has plenty of increased melee damage at its lower start node as well.

Either way, conclusion:

The circle of life is OP and not over-rated

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Invalesco wrote:

I have already acknowledged that the only classes that don't suffer are duelists, maras and non-caster templars because they all have easy access to the circle of life anyway.

OK, here's a generic 60-point Ranger Life/Evasion build, with full Acrobatics and doubled Projectile Evasion. Has +194% Increased Max Life and +136% Increased Evasion without going near the Circle of Life. It's not yet specialized for either ranged or melee, so you can take it in either direction from here. It can also be easily modified to take advantage of +1 Frenzy Charge nodes if you so desire.

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RogueMage wrote:

"

Invalesco wrote:

I have already acknowledged that the only classes that don't suffer are duelists, maras and non-caster templars because they all have easy access to the circle of life anyway.

OK, here's a generic 60-point Ranger Life/Evasion build, with full Acrobatics and doubled Projectile Evasion. Has +194% Increased Max Life and +136% Increased Evasion without going near the Circle of Life. It's not yet specialized for either ranged or melee, so you can take it in either direction from here. It can also be easily modified to take advantage of +1 Frenzy Charge nodes if you so desire.

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgIAm40ILu2DGY4AXtN-73oknX117g5iWv66Vvoa2yP2dEH8xflj7_B312egFfBaSH8rh3Y6WDB81opKfQR-UUeHGY2_qrgFtap_1CPN6o193ajo1saimybe9jBxMgHndEt4shkPq2HiOkLPem1sYeu1SHpTbXtVSyaV

Wait, what's the point of all this?

You seem to be completely out of tune with the reasoning why scion or the circle of life is so strong.

Firstly, the amount of life you picked is only 194%. Of course you don't need the circle of life. Read back, you'll notice that I mentioned the figure at which scions start to outshine the non str classes at being 240%, which is already considered on the low side in HC unless you're grabbing MoM.

Secondly, what is the point of just providing a 60 point build? The scion's strength stems from its ability to outshine every other build at end-game or near build completion, which to most players is around 110 points or so.

You may as well have provided me with a 5 point build and use it to 'prove' why the circle of life is not strong.

At least in that case, I wouldn't have to resort to a lengthy explanation.

I would just be able to say: well, of course the scion/circle of life isn't strong in that case, I can't even reach the circle of life in 5 points!

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Invalesco wrote:

Wait, what's the point of all this?

You seem to be completely out of tune with the reasoning why scion or the circle of life is so strong.

Firstly, the amount of life you picked is only 194%. Of course you don't need the circle of life. Read back, you'll notice that I mentioned the figure at which scions start to outshine the non str classes at being 240%, which is already considered on the low side in HC unless you're grabbing MoM.

Well, if your focus is solely on HC builds with over 240% Increased Max Life, then of course you'll have to use the entire Circle of Life to forge a classic Path of Life Nodes build. Given the chronic desync perils of the game, there's certainly valid justification for extreme survivalist builds in HC. I think that issue alone justifies the position of the Circle of Life in the Passive Tree.

But for SC builds, there are a number of defensive strategies that can reduce the amount of Increased Life you need well below 200%. This is also pertinent for mainstream players who don't have the budget or grinding time for Pay2Play indulgences such as Level-73+ maps and BiS Uniques. The point of my generic 60-point Ranger build is to show how you can readily create versatile build foundations without having to start with the Scion or sink ten points into the Circle of Life.

I have an idea why not to play every build as Scion!Other classes have different look,have better lines commenting events and don't talk nonsense 24/7.Enough? :D

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Hrishi wrote:

I do want to say, wouldn't it make more sense if that was a circle of armour instead of life? After all, the other circles are Evasion and ES (which are the INT and DEX variants of defensive stats), so shouldn't the STR one be armour? Rather than creating that massive circle of life, I feel like life nodes could be evenly distributed all over and that circle could become an armour circle. What do you think?

Well, I wouldn't be against that. However, I imagine it would cause a great amount of consternation amongst scion players.

"

RogueMage wrote:

"

Invalesco wrote:

Wait, what's the point of all this?

You seem to be completely out of tune with the reasoning why scion or the circle of life is so strong.

Firstly, the amount of life you picked is only 194%. Of course you don't need the circle of life. Read back, you'll notice that I mentioned the figure at which scions start to outshine the non str classes at being 240%, which is already considered on the low side in HC unless you're grabbing MoM.

Well, if your focus is solely on HC builds with over 240% Increased Max Life, then of course you'll have to use the entire Circle of Life to forge a classic Path of Life Nodes build. Given the chronic desync perils of the game, there's certainly valid justification for extreme survivalist builds in HC. I think that issue alone justifies the position of the Circle of Life in the Passive Tree.

But for SC builds, there are a number of defensive strategies that can reduce the amount of Increased Life you need well below 200%. This is also pertinent for mainstream players who don't have the budget or grinding time for Pay2Play indulgences such as Level-73+ maps and BiS Uniques. The point of my generic 60-point Ranger build is to show how you can readily create versatile build foundations without having to start with the Scion or sink ten points into the Circle of Life.

Well, thanks for showing me that I guess, although it wasn't necessary.

It is after all only common sense that a non end-game oriented build will not need to head to the circle of life of grab more life nodes.

Why would it? If your intention is to just play regular content till around level 60-70 or so then reroll or do something else, and not about trying to finish a build or playing high level end-game content, of course you don't need that much life. You aren't going to have many chances to meet mobs that will hit you that hard anyway!

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Invalesco wrote:

If your intention is to just play regular content till around level 60-70 or so then reroll or do something else, and not about trying to finish a build or playing high level end-game content, of course you don't need that much life. You aren't going to have many chances to meet mobs that will hit you that hard anyway!

At this point, I consider a 100-point level-80 build to be a realistic goal for a finished character. I also think that soloing Merciless Sceptre of God all the way through Dominus provides plenty of worthy opponents to challenge your combat skills. And I would be happy to take level-70+ plus characters into level-73+ maps if GGG revised their policies to make them readily accessible to players who have completed all lower level content. In my view, the virtual paywall that bars mainstream access to high-level maps relegates them to being a niche pursuit for the well-heeled elite.

"

RogueMage wrote:

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Invalesco wrote:

If your intention is to just play regular content till around level 60-70 or so then reroll or do something else, and not about trying to finish a build or playing high level end-game content, of course you don't need that much life. You aren't going to have many chances to meet mobs that will hit you that hard anyway!

At this point, I consider a 100-point level-80 build to be a realistic goal for a finished character. I also think that soloing Merciless Sceptre of God all the way through Dominus provides plenty of worthy opponents to challenge your combat skills. And I would be happy to take level-70+ plus characters into level-73+ maps if GGG revised their policies to make them readily accessible to players who have completed all lower level content. In my view, the virtual paywall that bars mainstream access to high-level maps relegates them to being a niche pursuit for the well-heeled elite.

and that, is a discussion for another thread. thanks.

"

TheSeth256 wrote:

I have an idea why not to play every build as Scion!Other classes have different look,have better lines commenting events and don't talk nonsense 24/7.Enough? :D

That IS about the only reason to play shadow or witch over scion atm!

Cool thread, invalesco having theory-craft funny's.

How about this suggestion inva?

Circle of life change = all nodes get reduced to 4%life and 6% armor.(big one to 8%life/10% armor)

Circle of evasion = all nodes get 4%life and reduced %evasion

Circle of ES = ES value's stay the same and they get +2%hp added to them.

Maybe you can come up with better numbers, but essentially it will make all the circles equal in terms of EHP? Would that not be a better solution? I mean everybody needs life while traveling the tree? This would make every circle equally appealing :)?