What builds are actually better off not starting from the Scion?

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Invalesco wrote:

Are there any non-mara/duelist/attack-based templar (these 3 class/builds already have easy access into the circle of life anyway) builds around? I am extremely interested to know.

I have 4 characters/builds that fit your criterias :

Self-Cast Arc Tanky Witch



Dual Claw Elemental Spectral Thrower (ranger)



Covenant Pulser (shadow)



12 charges Frenzy Archer (ranger)




I'm genuinely interested to see if you can come up with a better passive tree for any of them with Scion as a starting class.

"

Invalesco wrote:

Scion version of your level 80 CI build:

Higher ES, much higher DPS, just slightly reduced mana, but there are way more useful nodes in closer proximity as you level as compared to shadow version.

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgAACGe31pM6vScYPPnogsco-uq6N4Om6yymkNY3ZjQKtAyTJ36wHNxbu3_GcFHBxSepEZaio9hULL_sGIhCDkjB8w_Ehq6P-sNt8h3jhG0Z3McV11762-eIa-4VwFE74S0fO3zXhvyrMhhHBrb3t3Vw1eL3j6ZaplZjpuezA8LsES9d8nBSpytEq7jKb7y0xVWuUzErCgW1LJzBAI2_2xpRRxB7MwwwfJ8n9Uv-K38rFRpnZ746GdV319aK-vHCgP_ekA0zeOc6G-A=

Scion version of your 112 points lifer version

Higher life, higher DPS, higher mana, much higher mana regen, life regen, more useful nodes as you level. Scion beats this hands down, doubtless coz of the circle of life.

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgAACGe31pM621m9Jy2oGDyxkPnogwlBh0Zxtz60DP4KkyfyRedjfrDcVxzcOuGI8Vu7HpR_xqZXrFlwUaw_wcURlqKjTeMxnjWS2FTsGIhCDkgPxP6Pj_qnXMNt8h2CHuOE3Mde-tvnSVHbC-4VwFE7fPyrMhhHBrd18-pw1VqmpuezA8LscFJd8rjKb7y0xVMxBbWNv1FHMwwwfKq4_it_K6p_GdV319aKjX3_3pANdEEkajN4Vvq4N-c67g78xRvgI_Ya22eg7_D5Y4d2WkgV8Ep951Q6WCT91QAEfocZnao=

@CI: Sacrificed a bit of mana, crit chance and crit multiplier for some base damage (24% spell damage and 5% elemental damage difference I think) and I think 10% more ES, not sure it's exactly better, maybe equal or only very slightly better. I wouldn't say there's "more useful nodes" as I level either, since I can reach Scion's ES wheel and Witch's spell damage/AoE cluster like you've done in your build too.

@Life: The build I'm playing isn't the life version anyway, so that tree probably wasn't as well optimized to begin with lol.

Funnily enough, the CI build you linked actually looks a bit like my old Scion trapper build.

Anyway, in response to your other thread, you've actually shown here it's more a problem of the non-Scion classes having weaker starting areas than the Scion which is the problem rather than the Scion being a cockblock.

"

Kenzorz wrote:

"

Invalesco wrote:

Scion version of your level 80 CI build:

Higher ES, much higher DPS, just slightly reduced mana, but there are way more useful nodes in closer proximity as you level as compared to shadow version.

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgAACGe31pM6vScYPPnogsco-uq6N4Om6yymkNY3ZjQKtAyTJ36wHNxbu3_GcFHBxSepEZaio9hULL_sGIhCDkjB8w_Ehq6P-sNt8h3jhG0Z3McV11762-eIa-4VwFE74S0fO3zXhvyrMhhHBrb3t3Vw1eL3j6ZaplZjpuezA8LsES9d8nBSpytEq7jKb7y0xVWuUzErCgW1LJzBAI2_2xpRRxB7MwwwfJ8n9Uv-K38rFRpnZ746GdV319aK-vHCgP_ekA0zeOc6G-A=

Scion version of your 112 points lifer version

Higher life, higher DPS, higher mana, much higher mana regen, life regen, more useful nodes as you level. Scion beats this hands down, doubtless coz of the circle of life.

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgAACGe31pM621m9Jy2oGDyxkPnogwlBh0Zxtz60DP4KkyfyRedjfrDcVxzcOuGI8Vu7HpR_xqZXrFlwUaw_wcURlqKjTeMxnjWS2FTsGIhCDkgPxP6Pj_qnXMNt8h2CHuOE3Mde-tvnSVHbC-4VwFE7fPyrMhhHBrd18-pw1VqmpuezA8LscFJd8rjKb7y0xVMxBbWNv1FHMwwwfKq4_it_K6p_GdV319aKjX3_3pANdEEkajN4Vvq4N-c67g78xRvgI_Ya22eg7_D5Y4d2WkgV8Ep951Q6WCT91QAEfocZnao=

@CI: Sacrificed a bit of mana, crit chance and crit multiplier for some base damage (24% spell damage and 5% elemental damage difference I think) and I think 10% more ES, not sure it's exactly significantly better, maybe equal or only very slightly better. I wouldn't say there's "more useful nodes" as I level either, since I can reach Scion's ES wheel and Witch's spell damage/AoE cluster like you've done in your build too.

@Life: The build I'm playing isn't the life version anyway, so that tree probably wasn't as well optimized to begin with lol.

Funnily enough, the CI build you linked actually looks a bit like my old Scion trapper build.

Anyway, in response to your other thread, you've actually shown here it's more a problem of the non-Scion classes having weaker starting areas than the Scion which is the problem rather than the Scion being a cockblock.

The difference between the Scion's CI version and the shadow's CI version will become much more telling as you level with the Scion becoming much stronger. You can try to project for the next 10 points and you should be able to tell.

With regards to the life version - I didn't optimise either. If u look closely, I pretty much just copied your exact build. Scion is still way better whatever way you look at it. :p

The only reason the shadow CI build can still match up to the scion CI build at 100 points is because it is CI and the ES nodes in shadow/witch area are still slightly comparable, with Scion's main advantage (circle of life) not even in play yet. Another point is that you're a trapper and you go all the way down to the bottom right hand side, thus eliminating part of the advantage of starting from a Scion to begin with. Despite that, the CI scion can still match the CI shadow and will surpass it as both level. Scary.

Imagine a life-based caster build - the difference will be much higher compared to the life version of your trapper build, which is already significant enough.

You guys don't understand. It doesn't matter if shadow's starting area is buffed. I can still branch into it if I want to as a Scion.


Edit:

Velkor, I took a glance at your builds (sorry no time right now!) my gut feeling is that your builds are either better off as they are at the moment rather than being a scion or there won't be much difference - simply because the amount of life you take isn't substantial enough. You don't really travel that much to grab life nodes. The life nodes that you grab are along the way to your DPS nodes. However, no offense Velkor, but the amount of life in those builds (average 170% or so) probably will not be high enough to do well in HC. I think the significant HP amount where the difference starts to tell is at about 210% incr. max life.

Anything that takes one starting tree and branches in two different directions without linking and without crossing to the other side of the passive tree. Bonus if they don't need life

This would be the level 100 version of my CI Evasion Cold Crit Caster

The idea behind this build is to use Void Battery, so the max Power Charges is basically mandatory. Otherwise feel free to see if you can do better from Scion start.

"

Invalesco wrote:

You guys don't understand. It doesn't matter if shadow's starting area is buffed. I can still branch into it if I want to as a Scion.

It does actually.

If Shadow/Witch etc. had really strong starting areas they could simply start and take nodes around their area with little point investment.

For Scion to be able to branch off into the same thing she still has to make ~7+ points just to reach the same area whilst the Shadow and Witch can simply skip the nodes Scion would've taken so they can spend more points on their stronger starting areas (which is what GGG were aiming for, but they kinda screwed up giving Scion nodes that have the same amount of power as the more dedicated classes).

This obviously depends on how strong they make the starting areas, but I'm sure GGG will manage somehow to make the starting areas strong enough to warrant picking the classes over Scion.

Well I've got plans for two builds and I want to see whether if I should go the class I picked for each one. If I didn't provide enough info just shoot a pm.

Ranger - CI Dual Claw (Bloodseeker)


Witch - Phys Wander

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kaross579 wrote:

This would be the level 100 version of my CI Evasion Cold Crit Caster

The idea behind this build is to use Void Battery, so the max Power Charges is basically mandatory. Otherwise feel free to see if you can do better from Scion start.

Here you go Kaross. Not much difference for you. Slightly higher ES, 8% incr. mana, slightly higher base damage but 3% lower cast speed and lower crit chance.

Reasons for the lack of difference are:
1. your build is CI, not life-based
2. DPS glass cannon build. If you wanted more survivability, Scion would be better

"

Kenzorz wrote:

"

Invalesco wrote:

You guys don't understand. It doesn't matter if shadow's starting area is buffed. I can still branch into it if I want to as a Scion.

It does actually.

If Shadow/Witch etc. had really strong starting areas they could simply start and take nodes around their area with little point investment.

For Scion to be able to branch off into the same thing she still has to make ~7+ points just to reach the same area whilst the Shadow and Witch can simply skip the nodes Scion would've taken so they can spend more points on their stronger starting areas (which is what GGG were aiming for, but they kinda screwed up giving Scion nodes that have the same amount of power as the more dedicated classes).

This obviously depends on how strong they make the starting areas, but I'm sure GGG will manage somehow to make the starting areas strong enough to warrant picking the classes over Scion.

Actually, after planning all the builds, it does seem like the starting area may make a difference. However, that would mean that it would require a massive buff. DPS nodes at the starting area can and should be improved. However, the most glaring issue is still life. The circle of life and the Shaper notable is just too strong.

The only HP nodes that the scion will have trouble grabbing would be:



Based on my calculations, Shadow's starting HP cluster (on the left) needs to be changed to 8%/8%/12% and witch (on the right) also to 8%/8%/12% with a reduction of all the 8% nodes in the scion's circle of life to 6%. This will make the shadow and witch start more competitive in terms of life. Even then, it's still only balanced for level 90, and at level 90+, scion gains the advantage again.

Shadow's notable sucks as well compared to Shaper. Shaper should just have its bonus halved. As it stands, 40% mana regen and 1% life regen is worth 4.5 small nodes. Shadow's mental acuity is only worth 3, with the 30% incr. crit chance not even that impressive compared to the 25% crit chance at witch start and at Heartseeker area.

I don't really share your optimism with regards to balance being done quickly... Hence my posts. In all honesty though, I really don't see why the scion starting nodes shouldn't be joined as per my post in feedback.

By all means, buff shadow and witch to the high heavens and give them no reason at all to path into Scion, but don't restrict build diversity - join up Scion's nodes as well to open up options for other classes. 6 starting points for scion compared to 2 for each other class? This is favouritism.


@jace - sorry, kinda lazy to plan out any more trees for tonight. However, I did look at your passive tree and I'm very sure the scion versions would beat both of them.

If you're a duelist or mara you wouldn't have any problems with the scion, because all your builds end up going through into the circle of life anyway. If you're a shadow or a witch, you can't access the circle of life but a scion always will. On top of that, only Scion has access to the Shaper notable, which is extremely strong. For those reasons alone, any scion build, in particular life-based, will always be better than any shadow or witch build.

Still looking for HC-oriented shadow/witch life-based builds that are better off being a Shadow/Witch than a Scion. (>200% incr. max life)

"

Invalesco wrote:

If you're a shadow or a witch, you can't access the circle of life but a scion always will.

I've played a life based tank witch, accessed life circle, so I'm asking you... what?