What builds are actually better off not starting from the Scion?

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Invalesco wrote:

Scion only really outshines the others at around the 240% mark.

I think this pretty much sums up the whole thread. 240% increased life is not even close to be necessary for a solid, hard to kill character.

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Personally, I consider a character with between 175% to 200% life to be pretty solid defensively if the other defense aspects of the character (Armor, Evasion, Dodge, block, etc.) are also well covered.

What I just said applies to standard/domination characters. That doesn't mean the character will die frequently, far from it. In standard, starting at around level 75, if you want to make any progress, particularly if you're soloing, you need to be very survivable. If your character dies too often, you can't progress and you fail. Its basically the softcore equivalent of a Hardcore "death". And believe me, it happens quite a lot, particularly among unexperimented players.

Anyway, I think you should change your title to "In HC leagues, what builds are actually better off not starting from the Scion?"


Finally, I don't like your solution of reducing the Scion's circle of life nods from 8% to 6%. If anything, this circle could get 1 less 8% nod. That, I could live with.

Edit : you're right, sorry. You said 6%, not 7%. But that's even worst :p

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Velkor wrote:

"

Invalesco wrote:

Scion only really outshines the others at around the 240% mark.

I think this pretty much sums up the whole thread. 240% increased life is not even close to be necessary for a solid, hard to kill character.

___________________________

Personally, I consider a character with between 175% to 200% life to be pretty solid defensively if the other defense aspects of the character (Armor, Evasion, Dodge, block, etc.) are also well covered.

What I just said applies to standard/domination characters. That doesn't mean the character will die frequently, far from it. In standard, starting at around level 75, if you want to make any progress, particularly if you're soloing, you need to be very survivable. If your character dies too often, you can't progress and you fail. Its basically the softcore equivalent of a Hardcore "death". And believe me, it happens quite a lot, particularly among unexperimented players.

Anyway, I think you should change your title to "In HC leagues, what builds are actually better off not starting from the Scion?"


Finally, I don't like your solution of reducing the Scion's circle of life nods from 8% to 7%. If anything, this circle could get 1 less 8% nod. That, I could live with.

My comment above was if everything else were kept equal - mana, mana regen, charges, etc.

If all those are not taken into account, scion is far better. For instance, some builds may spend two points to take a frenzy charge because there is no other useful node nearby to grab, and it's essentially 2 points for 5% incr. attack speed whereas the scion can spend 1 point and grab 6% attack speed.

In my personal opinion, a build needs far more than just 200% incr. life to be viable. Of course, everyone's opinion can defer. However, from a HC point of view, either a balance to the scion or granting other classes' equal opportunity to the circle of life is required because an entire league's class distribution balance depends on this.

Indeed, the HC league aspect of it might indeed be more appropriate. However, I have already proven that scions can also be on par even at the 210% mark. It's not just that alone. Being a scion just offers you so much more flexibility without having to sacrifice anything.

I never did propose reducint the circle of life's nodes from 8% to 7%. I proposed 8% to 6%.

Any build with over 200% increased life from nodes is dipping into path of life nodes territory and I would have a hard time taking such a build seriously unless youre playing HC.

The ideal play in poe (for exp is to go aegis tank and lol at desync and interupts) and this doesnt require that amount of life total.

I have no objections about removing 1 or 3 or even 3 of the 8% nodes in the wheel of life but nerfing them 7% is ridiculous.

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Nephalim wrote:

Any build with over 200% increased life from nodes is dipping into path of life nodes territory and I would have a hard time taking such a build seriously unless youre playing HC.

The ideal play in poe (for exp is to go aegis tank and lol at desync and interupts) and this doesnt require that amount of life total.

I have no objections about removing 1 or 3 or even 3 of the 8% nodes in the wheel of life but nerfing them 7% is ridiculous.

You don't need to dip into the circle of life to grab more than 200% incr. life. Indeed, you can't even do that if you're a shadow or a witch. However, a scion can do it more efficiently while being as strong as a shadow/witch. That's the whole point of this thread.

Not everyone wants to go for an aegis aurora build. Life is still more important.

So, why would you guys say nerfing them to 6% (not 7%) would be ridiculous, or is it just for pure opposition alone?

I've already done a number of calculations.

If the scion's starting area is not joined. The only way to make it balanced from the shadow or witch's point of view is to nerf the circle of life nodes to 6% and buff shadow/witch starting area hp nodes to 8/8/12.

This game is about choices.

Right now, it's not a choice.

It's a no-brainer for every templar, mara, duelist and scion to branch into the circle of life.

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clasgutr wrote:

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgQAmy0XHbe2jX7NmN7GvqfqYtJNbmnv48APhNnEuGNwZU3V-DSTR362QavFTipbryml3Q3Q7vzF96NW-megYnnuDod2FfYa2yP2Sn0ABvlj7_AV8FpIOlgF-edUBH6jitUAhxmbJujWMgHe9rIZ53TPemHih9sWv5P88-quz3BSwFHrjuOEtUgOSG17EZadqlVLnaNW6n_GYqyMNiaV_KsFfcHFJ6nWnYhCWm2QG4IeJDxwVtsLp1yaE0lR29QY23TxIWBAoAUtYEt673TthTKeuZcGxKJMYASxlWYDhxut

Can you make this build any better as a scion? Its Cyclone CoC EK

Shadow variant

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgYA_5MeGtIZ1tEqW7VI645te67PVUuT_Iw2JpWH2xa_YeLz6ud0cFLAUd7244To1g5ImyYRlp2qo4oyAZ2jVup_xmKsBfmyGfyrBX3BxSep1p2XBhXwz3qIQlptxKL5YzpY51SQG4IeJDwa2wR-1QBwVtsLp1zuDocZmhNJUVb6I_bb1PzF7_DdDWegWkhbr4d2TirQ7hjbSn0ppbZB96N08TSTYnkhYIUyY3AV9kCg7-MABgUtvqdgS9JNbml678APhNnEuHTtZU3V-Ed-q8WVyN-YYlol3xv6pBm74_66

Here you go: used your shadow variant as a base for comparison.

Higher life, much higher DPS, similar defense.

I'm sure you can edit/fine tune it even more to suit your needs, such is the versatility of this op class.

"

Higher life, much higher DPS, similar defense.

Not really convinced your scion version is better. Here are some key differences:

- You're losing 2.5% life regen, yes that's a big deal.
- You're losing 18% block, again this is very much worth mentioning.
- You're losing on +2 melee range which is more than just a luxury when using daggers.
- You're losing ballistic mastery which is very much needed in that build(projectile speed).
- You're losing a ton of dex which is potential acc(which you need)
- You lose 8% movement or so from leather and steel.
- You only gain 10% life, 10% IAS,10% all res,15% crit chance for all that.

"

kasub wrote:

"

Higher life, much higher DPS, similar defense.

Not really convinced your scion version is better. Here are some key differences:

- You're losing 2.5% life regen, yes that's a big deal.
- You're losing 18% block, again this is very much worth mentioning.
- You're losing on +2 melee range which is more than just a luxury when using daggers.
- You're losing ballistic mastery which is very much needed in that build(projectile speed).
- You're losing a ton of dex which is potential acc(which you need)
- You lose 8% movement or so from leather and steel.
- You only gain 10% life, 10% IAS,10% all res,15% crit chance for all that.

Whoops, sorry clasgutr. Didn't realise you changed your name.

Btw, you forgot the 12% incr. spell damage and the 12% incr. physical damage, both of which benefits EK, with the latter benefiting Cyclone as well. Oh, and the 8% extra mana which also improves survivability because he's MoM.

But no really, different people will value different attributes/nodes differently.

As I mentioned,

"

I'm sure you can edit/fine tune it even more to suit your needs, such is the versatility of this op class.

Don't like it? Change it.

Tadaa



Here you go. Another version.

Still don't like it? Change it again. Indulge your optimisation obsession. So much freedom without a need to feel restricted at all. Sure, let's block off the center of the tree to restrict every other class' potential and allow one class to have total freedom and rule them all.

"

Here you go. Another version.

Still don't like it? Change it again. Indulge your optimisation obsession. So much freedom without a need to feel restricted at all. Sure, let's block off the center of the tree to restrict every other class' potential and allow one class to have total freedom and rule them all.

Well your new version is almost the same as the shadow version. You trade some armor/block for a some offensive points. I'm just saying that in this case I don't think scion is clearly better.

"

kasub wrote:

"

Here you go. Another version.

Still don't like it? Change it again. Indulge your optimisation obsession. So much freedom without a need to feel restricted at all. Sure, let's block off the center of the tree to restrict every other class' potential and allow one class to have total freedom and rule them all.

Well your new version is almost the same as the shadow version. You trade some armor/block for a some offensive points. I'm just saying that in this case I don't think scion is clearly better.

Oh damn, tough customer to please eh?

Why, here's another version!



You're missing the point completely. The point is not to strive for a passive tree version that is either exactly the same or way more superior than the other, although with a scion, that is still possible especially for EB/MoM builds or for life-based casters in particular.

The point is that the scion is no way weaker despite its versatility or the so called 'numerical weakness' of the starting area. Players will value different mods differently. For instance, I couldn't care less about 18% block chance anyway if I'm going to end up being immune to stun and being able to double granite/jade. Neither am I going to care about life regen if I'm going to be leeching life. I would rather deal way more DPS. This is a dual wield build not an Aegis Aurora build.

With a scion, the potential is so much higher. You get the option to alter/compensate your tree according to your gear rather than your gear according to your tree. That in the end-game allows you to be less restricted and more powerful even if you may be lacking in a few %block chance nodes/life regen nodes whatever.

You saw that amazing unique/rare ring with +70 base life but you're loathe to give up your 40% mana regen ring because you won't be able to run arctic armour anymore? Why, just spend 2 regrets, spec out of one 8% life node and one 25% crit chance node and grab mana flows for 24% incr. mana (which will compensate for the 8% loss in life) and the 40% mana regen, get your godly ring and feel on top of the world!

The truly powerful end-game builds don't rely on the skildrasil alone. They rely on both the skildrasil as well as the ability to synergise their tree to their gear.

I have been one of those people strongly against the notion that scions are "OP". You have however convinced me of their superior flexibility which I do appreciate. Thanks for putting the effort into posting all those trees.

I don't think their HP nodes need to nerfed since that's just harming all classes. Opening up the middle area some more and buffing the start of shadow/witch would greatly aide game balance.