Tanking definition
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I love how armor guys like to talk trash on evasion when the vast majority of their "end game" builds are relying on one OP shield. Let me create a shield like that for evasion and I will show you how brokenly OP evasion can get.
Also love these comments about "one shots" and such from people who have NEVER played a high level evasion character, yet alone built a proper evasion character. Instead they keep repeating some "fact" they came across on the forums which was repeated by someone, who heard it from someone else, who saw it happen to someone else who didn't know how to build strong evasion. PS - one of the many things you guys probably don't know is that you can EVADE Vaal smash. But on a more pressing note - evasion needs better end-game uniques and needs to be seriously buffed. The metagame is tilted too much towards armor (Iron Reflex, gems like Molten Shell + Arctic Armor, CWDT, etc). If I could get 100K evasion, well ... how broken would that get? I would take that any day over 100K armor. We are talking about ~90% guaranteed attack avoidance (before Blind/Enfeeble/Ondar's Guile) - you could easily hit the max evade cap of 95% guaranteed attack avoidance I'm sure against unique bosses, and this is before any block or dodge. Anyway, "tanks" will be on the losing side as harder and harder bosses get introduced. Especially for armor builds with low damage avoidance - eventually the damage is going to get so high that avoiding it will become the best strategy. They are already countering damage avoidance with degen. Just roll a crit st/bow/flicker or summoner and don't look back. Last edited by Ceryneian#3541 on Jan 24, 2014, 12:15:58 AM
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" Thankyou for telling me vaal smash can be evaded, i had no idea. I need to give you a medal, sir. I see you get hit by a white bear for 80% of your hp in a video, its laughable. Lets see you do what tinko did, tank an extra dmg -max palace dominus touch of god multiple times in a row. Let it actually hit you, ie skip your evasion. Come speak to me again after that. @autochthon: Again more talk, no visual proof. 'Only' vaal smash and dominus smash is (a) incorrect, there are map mods + monsters that can hit for outrageous amounts (watch bobslop video), and other bosses too (b) irrelevant, we are talking about an absolute tank here, nothing can be left out, it is of no excuse. This is what im talking about, when they make 'immortal tank' titles and then proceed to say 'I skip this , this and that'. Pisses me off. Even while IC is up it will continue to proc over and over off elemental damage. Literally every ele,mental damage source. --> You guys need English lessons. Its cast WHEN damage taken, it should be rewritten to cast AFTER damage taken to make it easy for illiterate ppl I suppose! Sometimes you can get 1shot BEFORE it procs. Last edited by ancalagon3000#6581 on Jan 24, 2014, 2:23:00 AM
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Only point you guys agree is we all need a minimum pool of life/ES, with no doubt...
I may be wrong, but aren't armor and evasion based on decreasing efficiency in this game ? So in this case, what about the "best" tank being the one using all the possibilities offered ? I understand your pov in wanting to minimize randomness by playing full Armor/resistances, but it sounds like a lost in advance fight to me regarding the game mechanics. And I agree with Ceryneian : without overpowered Aegis Aurora, most of actual tank builds completely fall apart. I mean, no problem, it s not cheating as this, like the CoD/summoners, is just using the possibilities...until GGG realizes it s not "working as intended" ;) This game is all about RNG smoothed with a bit of entropy, ride the wave ! |
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" Agree on the one OP shield, but I don't see trash talk here, we've discussed how things work, there is still an issue that evasion is still better, and now I'm waiting for a video, or videos. And now you question about one shots, and you haven't put arguments to support it, no wonder, because there aren't any. Oh, sorry, you've mentioned Vaal Smash, seriously? You say you'd rather take 100k evasion rather than 100k armour, I'm baffled by that. Keep in mind, it's also discussed about high end game (95+ level characters on 76+ maps), where even some combined map mods on white monsters hit hard even on 60k armour, that would result of an evasion character to get one shot undoubtedly. So you might wanna argument further, best way would be with a video. And I see you've now stated that evasion needs more buffs, why is that? Because, you're saying it's better than armour, or not? I won't talk about future game development, no point in that. |
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" watch tinko's videos and watch ceryneian getting almost 1shot by a white bear, and then choose for yourself which one is stronger and if real armor / life tanks fall apart at endgame. The difference between ceryneian and tinko: Tinko stays and tanks. Ceryneian would step out of vaal smash or dominus hand of god or a rare bear with extra dmg / powerful crits, even though he talks about evasion being so powerful. Last edited by ancalagon3000#6581 on Jan 24, 2014, 4:20:11 AM
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While i do agree with the initial post ,which probably is a direct attack on that Scion Incinerate build with over 40 pages of comments, i still think the combination off all these defense options put together make up a good tanky build.
You just dont have to get caught up investing in just 1 defense type and ignore the others. Taking on docks or a few lvl 66-67 maps with medium to easy map mods with ease doesnt make you tanky at all,almost any well put together build can do that. |
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" lol "buffed" Ok so let's do maths with buffed things up then Your 60k buffed armor: 60000 / (4000*12+60000) = 55% = 1800 final damage 0 basic armor and a 100% extra armor granite, providing 6k armor: armor mitigation: 6000 /(4000*12+6000) = 11% = 3560 You have 1000 mana pool available; so your reduction over that 3560 is 1000, damage is reduced to 2560 Then AA: 2560 - 189 = 2371 final damage You took 500 less damage than a buffed 0 armor build, it doesn't seem an astonishing difference to me. Let's do the same thing but with 5k basic armor (veeeeeeery easy achievable) and a 100% granite: total armor buffed is 5k+3k*2 = 16000 armor mitigation: 16000 / (4000*12+16000) = 25% = 3000 You still mitigate 1k with MoM, damage is reduced to 2000; plus 189 form AA = 1811 final damage You took 11 damage less than a 5k armor MoM AA build Ah in all honesty, you should NEVER take a 4000 hit, no matter what your build is, a 4000 raw phisical damage can be dealt in high maps by only certain kinds of monsters with +X% damage mod, monsters like golems, bone rohas, leap slammers and shield chargers, and ofc kole/vaal Im not saying that MoM + AA or EVA are better than armor, i'm just posting the maths around these defences Last edited by Mahesys#6567 on Jan 24, 2014, 5:19:47 AM
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" So tanking is understood as "stay in front and keep aggro on monsters by hitting them and soaking all damages income". I understood it as "survavibility". In this case, best would be to reach or be close to defensives cap : 90%armor, 90%evasion, 70%block with tons of life/es. Problem : it's actually not possible, and very high armor value can only be reached with IR+Grace+Determination and Granite Flask +90%armor value, so making Evasion not possible to combine with. Only block can. So in a way, I agree with you. Because of the actual state of the game/skills/passives. What I meant by "ride the wave" was more about : why would you stand in front if you can avoid it ? :D I mean, PoE isn't a mmo where you have a "Tank" that MUST stay in front and be able to survive because the life of your 39 other teammates depends on him staying alive. In the way "tanking" is described here : stay in front and kill, I agree that rng/entropy/skills/passives make pure armor better. In term of global survavibility and also taking in consideration the decreasing efficiency of armor/eva values, I maintain a mix of armor/eva/block/debuffs is better. Last edited by KingKhaan#0622 on Jan 24, 2014, 5:22:11 AM
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" How do you expect anyone to take you seriously after this? A build under 7k life/ES cannot be called a real tank, it can only be tanky to a certain point, where some combined map mods are pretty nasty and it's prone to a very unsafe gameplay (let alone certain bosses, or even mediocre bosses with few dangerous map mods). Obviously MoM builds are screwed in Blood Magic maps. And again where's AA in armour builds? Time for videos guys, enough of paper talk. " Because we're discussing tanking here, or? Last edited by tinko92#6447 on Jan 24, 2014, 5:28:07 AM
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" Ok this has to stop, so again in recap:- tanking is surviving a barrage of damage, evasion does this too ofc until it gets one shot because lower buffer and armor. dying =/= survivability / tanking evasion cant survive all hits, armor / life tank - tinko's kind - can survive even vaal smashes and dominus tog's with nasty map mods when character gets HIT, ie the hit makes it through eva / block / dodge / what fucking ever is designed to avoid it Of course ... everyone's definition of tanking varies, and I dont know how the fuck this discussion got into the usual evasion vs armor stacking builds bullshit, all I said was I hate phags who type 'immortal tank' with a shitty squishy char and even admit 'I cant do x y and z' while the title clearly says 'tank' and 'immortal'. Its like they need a lesson in basic English. |
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