Remember the CB plan. The game developed in the opposite direction

"

Large chests - I've personally explained this to you a few times hillbert, it was bot fodder. Hex was able to make 1 pure ex a day, probably 5-6 gcp on top of that as well just running cave during CB. He's human, doing it manually. A bot running that is much worse than them running ledge. D3 understood this quickly and took out easy to access large chests too.

The devs wrote they were aiming for a game where botting and RMT wasn't worthwile.

You can't fail harder in those terms. High tier players either are spoonfed, RMT or play with players RMTing.

The devs failed a system to implement them randomly not tied to certain tileset.

"

Killspeed - it got slowed down because look at how people are producing mirror worthy items. If you don't prepare for 50k RT DPS but balance around self found, this loot game becomes pointless once you find good loot. I agree it might be slightly out of whack now but there needed to be change here.

They RMT.....
"N Exalts O FG" that's how they to it.
CB had nasty reflect effects which got toned down to nothing. Any character with high DPS was screwed if he didn't take care.
This also drags itself into cruel+ gameplay when you reach a point you need +1 gemlevel and in merciless +2 gemlevels of your current gemlevels to reach an acceptable killspeed.

A balance attempt should be high DPS players live dangerously not kill everybody who fails gearchecks.

"

Vendor recipes - Another I've explained. I was personally making 30-100 alchs a day, some people were making 10-30 regals a day, this is a problem. You miss it because you didn't abuse it but if it were still possible all these people doing nothing but farming would flood the game with these orbs. It needed to go.

Nobody needed to trade them. Orbs were used for crafting instead of stupid RMT swaptrading.
I never had more than 1 stack of chaos orbs in my stash.
In fact I alched all my maps and rerolled till they had tons of quantity or desired mods.

"

Phaserun - I have always prefered QSs. I always make my builds so I don't need flasks anymore but I try to never have a wasted gem slot. Most of the time in CB I wasn't using phaserun but in OB+ I've always made room for a QS.

Remember when Granites got nerfed to 4000 Armor because CIs didn't need any flasks anymroe.

In fact phaserun would have got better use than it had back than helping builds.

For example a dex Phaserun could boost evasion and movement speed. Work with frenzy charges.
You could use phase run on cast on damage taken and escape.

A str/dex phase run could be like the old phase run with a lower damage boost.

There weren't any gems to support Phaserun so it had only 1 use.

The game changed in a manner that Flasks become useless at some point you use 1 mana or 1 instant life flask and the rests are gearcheckflasks and quicksilvers.

"

Cutthroat league - I'm amazed they haven't even done a 1 week cutthroat. I've heard them say that they don't think a permanent or semipermanent league would work but seems like you should test 1 week at least. I was expecting more 1 weeks like the res penalty change one. Test out large changes before added but they did it the one time and never since. I wish they did it for chaos res ffs.

The devs didn't even add a 4 level fix so all matchups will be equal level or a warning if a high level entered the area.
Diablo 2 had Pking but you always saw who is in the game and hostile rang a warning sound so you took care if some high level player entered your zone.

CT would work but only if the settings were more CB like and players had the possibility to come back.
You saw the between season CTs in Standard they weren't any different than HC CTs because players couldn't do a comeback.
In CB settings brutus had less HP and in long term CT you could kill him for vendor receipes totally unequipped. In your terms abusive.
You could trade and roll EQ again and be ready do do harder content again.
But that's impossible now.
Even if you collect white items you will be butchered in Merciless because you won't survive hits with white EQ or do enough damage(spellcasters aside) to make a comeback.

"

are no different to me than sitting down to play poker.

Dicegames are gambling.
Poker is math and psychology.

"

Adapting to the changes I'm producing way more. If I did this stuff during CB I could have made 40-60 alchs a week just mapping. MFing, jesus, I PMed Chris about this being changed a few times and I don't regret it at all. It was highly abusive.
We do need more vendor recipes though.

That could be easily fixed with decaying currency.
Decaying currency would help newer players and punish horders or RMTers.
The economy would stay stable.

How would decaying currency have any effect? A person dedicated to making alchs can make over 100+ A DAY.

Give to mapping friends who alch everything worthwhile. Share profits, or keep the gear.

Keeping the gear-->Stash Tabs-->GGG makes profit.

And still they wouldn't have filled pages of currency.
And do you really believe a CT League where you need EQ would have pages of currency?
You want to make a comeback asap so you run out of currency.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

That said, OP is dead-on in that GGG's focus has been too much on that category. Things like permanent CT leagues, more emphasis on PvP tournaments, and fixing desync have, in my opinion, been left in the dust by an over-emphasis on balancing the game strictly from a PvE mechanics perspective. Some things, like introducing Descent races, have been great ideas with great results; what we need is more stuff along those lines and less focus on the grind. One doesn't have to disagree with those balance decisions (which, for the most part, I don't) to concede that they are fundamentally less important than things like new game modes and netcode performance issues.

Aka things that require significantly more thorough testing than relatively simple balance changes that they're somewhat experienced with?

"

Hilbert wrote:

They RMT.....
"N Exalts O FG" that's how they to it.
CB had nasty reflect effects which got toned down to nothing. Any character with high DPS was screwed if he didn't take care.
This also drags itself into cruel+ gameplay when you reach a point you need +1 gemlevel and in merciless +2 gemlevels of your current gemlevels to reach an acceptable killspeed.

A balance attempt should be high DPS players live dangerously not kill everybody who fails gearchecks.

Who is they? There are many high DPS builds, even in HC (meaning they can deal with the reflect) that don't RMT. My current build probably has over 50k (CoC, so varies and tooltip tells me nothing) and I'm too poor to RMT. My buddy has 30k down from 50k w/ RT and with the horrid map luck he has if he was RMTing I'd know quickly. Don't just pass off all good gear as being bought. I think RMT is a problem but not a catch all.

"

Nobody needed to trade them. Orbs were used for crafting instead of stupid RMT swaptrading.
I never had more than 1 stack of chaos orbs in my stash.
In fact I alched all my maps and rerolled till they had tons of quantity or desired mods.

"

That could be easily fixed with decaying currency.
Decaying currency would help newer players and punish horders or RMTers.
The economy would stay stable.

wtf type of meta thinking is that. "nobody needed to trade them." Nobody needed to farm them either. But both are possible and need to be considered. A couple of people and I basically crushed the alch market in CB, single handily started driving the price down. There might have been like 5 of us. If everyone could produce 40-50 alchs a week, with farmers doing that a day no one could use all those alchs. I wasn't able to sell them fast enough so I had my buddy start picking up jewelry from high level maps, all of them. He would give me a stash tab of jewelry every few days. I had enough to pay him 1 alch per 5 pieces (I think we rounded it to 30 alchs or 5 gcps which at the time was a lot) then had enough to alch all that jewelry, STILL had alchs left over.

Currently I have about 100 chaos in my stash and this is including my mapping habit which I've done over 200 maps (70+, all alched/chaosed) the last 2 weeks. Trading happens.

With decaying specifically, it would only punish casuals. RMTers would just drop prices to dump off orbs before they go bad (same as a grocery store does). Now horders would just invest in gear. Someone like me, when I was pumping out a ton of alchs would just alch everything. If the recipe was the same and I could make 100 alchs a week, casually, I'd alch every top item base and piece of jewelry I could find. Then make chaos on demand when I needed chaos to either buy something or roll maps.

"

Remember when Granites got nerfed to 4000 Armor because CIs didn't need any flasks anymroe.

In fact phaserun would have got better use than it had back than helping builds.

For example a dex Phaserun could boost evasion and movement speed. Work with frenzy charges.
You could use phase run on cast on damage taken and escape.

A str/dex phase run could be like the old phase run with a lower damage boost.

There weren't any gems to support Phaserun so it had only 1 use.

The game changed in a manner that Flasks become useless at some point you use 1 mana or 1 instant life flask and the rests are gearcheckflasks and quicksilvers.

Can't disagree phase run would be more interesting now, can't say I'd like to use it over stuff like end cry, immortal call, curse or whatever else.

Also, again from my personal view, I hate using flasks period. If I have to use them I feel my build isn't working right. I know this isn't everyone's view, in fact contrary to most, so using a QS to me is annoying but I'm using my flasks regularly. Otherwise I wouldn't. In CB I never bothered with flasks. I remember I had a lvl 80 build with a large mana flask just because I didn't care about switching it out.

"

are no different to me than sitting down to play poker.

Dicegames are gambling.
Poker is math and psychology.

"

Poker is also gambling and playing the odds, same as POE. Dice there's no weight to anything, completely random, POE isn't. Also you can't out think anyone in dice. POE there's many edges you can find over other players. Knowing how certain mechanics work, understanding trade, how to map, best way to get exp at certain times, many different things. My analogy is correct, regardless of your bitterness.

"

Moosifer wrote:

Also, again from my personal view, I hate using flasks period. If I have to use them I feel my build isn't working right.

Interesting, I actually feel the same way, can't stand consumables in any game... ok, maybe in The Witcher but they're a huge part of the lore there and the whole point of becoming a witcher (besides increased libido).

"

Freesland2 wrote:

In many of the patches after that, they have shown how terrible at balancing they are

If you are familiar with the card game Magic the Gathering (just Magic or MtG to those that play), there are many formats, much like the various leagues in PoE. There are cards in MtG that are like legacy items in Standard. Cards that are illegal in almost every format, and in the formats they are allowed in, you may run only one copy, not 4 like you can with other cards in other formats.

GGG devs play MtG with 4 copies of these cards in their decks. I know this because they have told me so themselves. This is why PoE "balance" is a fucking joke.

(for those that know MtG, GGG devs run 4 stripmines in a deck. OP as fuck, and every MtG community I know of would shun such players in an instant)

"

Robert_Paulson wrote:

(for those that know MtG, GGG devs run 4 stripmines in a deck. OP as fuck, and every MtG community I know of would shun such players in an instant)

Probably 4 Time Walks too.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Things like permanent CT leagues, more emphasis on PvP tournaments, and fixing desync have, in my opinion, been left in the dust by an over-emphasis on balancing the game strictly from a PvE mechanics perspective

Well, you know that PoE has never been really suited for pvp, the very existence of keystones like RT / CI / lifeless etc .... is enough to know it.



EDIT : OWNED ><
should have reloaded the page ...

"

(besides increased libido).

lol
Witchers are sterile :p



But remember in the witcher games potions are also poison and unless you attempt a mutation build where poison increases the power(which is incredibly difficult to play in Witcher 2 on higher difficulties since the Draurur in Act2 was a test if you build worked and if you could handle the situations which was hard because the Draugur used a Cyclone like skill to follow you)

In terms of PoE the boss would be a big golem with shieldcharge, firestorm, RoA, cyclone, heavy strike, Cleave and possible more abillities I forgot.

"

If you are familiar with the card game Magic the Gathering (just Magic or MtG to those that play), there are many formats, much like the various leagues in PoE. There are cards in MtG that are like legacy items in Standard. Cards that are illegal in almost every format, and in the formats they are allowed in, you may run only one copy, not 4 like you can with other cards in other formats.

There are pretty early hards which are illegal in each format because they had the idea to use cards for gambling or ideas like "shred a landcard into pieces and throw the pieces on the field and each card it by a piece will be destroyed"


MTG got horrible balancing. If you want to play got to the MTG Workstation and play certain formats.

There is Vintage and the only way to beat the most powerful decks is to counter them.
For example the strongest deck is a 3-5 turn killer deck which abuses one of the less powerful cards(not the powerful cards as the 5 moxes, black lotus, time walk, time vault, ancestral recall iirc)
Bazar of Bagdad or Library of Alexandria(the one draw 2 cards discard a card land)
And uses a special redraw card. The goal is to get as many cards on the graveyard and counter spells.

The only way to defeat this deck(beside lucky 1 turn kills) is having an enchantment from Urzas Saga for 1 black mana which removes all cards from the game and having many instants to dispell or counter spells so it will certainly be played. I think the Sphere of Resistance could also help because it increased the cost of all cards by 1 mana.

If you don't got the card following will happen: there are 10 or more cards on the graveyard and a card will be played which generares a 2/2 zombie token for each card on the graveyard, meaning the next turn you are done for.
Limits do nothing in fact there are like 5-6 powerful decks and the only way to beat them is to create counter decks.


Then there is Legacy which bans limited Vintage cards but one(forgot which one becomes unrestricted) this ruleset only delays certain combination because there the Wizards tried to reprint certain cards is several ways.

For example Black Lotus had reprint attempts like mox diamond, lotus blossom and a suspend system(you can't play the card till turn x) much later(don't know about that because it's a reprint long after I played the game)
Those reprints utterly failed to enable broken mechanics again.
I remember several Tempest(too powerful)/Stronghold(still to powerful)/Mirage(underpowered such as the 2 mana mox attempts or sacrifice hybrid lands) reprintattempts which failed, then urzas saga attempts which created the most powerful legendary lands beside the 3(bagdad, alexandria) which had an attempt to counter them with the addition of mana burning because you gained like 5-6 mana because of 1 land.




This mode is dominated by by overpowered cards not banned or restricted.
For example Illusionary Mask and Phyrexian Dreadknought a combo that allows you to play a 12/12 creature without any drawbacks.

The remaining rulesets are last 3 cardsets and actual ruleset so all old cards have to be forgotten.

"

(for those that know MtG, GGG devs run 4 stripmines in a deck. OP as fuck, and every MtG community I know of would shun such players in an instant)

Strip Mines are iirc the Lands sacrifice strip mine Destroy another land or add colorless mana.
Those were early reprintsattempts of the early hybrid lands of the first or second edition.

MTG had far bigger problems with too powerful artifact cards, legendary lands, cross cardset combos.
For example Timevault+ Volatic Key(Guess the Card set? Right Urzas Saga, which was intented to be used with a Tower or Monolith of another Urzas Legacy/Destiny Card as manapool.

And FYI the old cards have mechanics never made a comeback.
Rampage(rather useful in longer matches but there were cards like teka drageon)

Echo(because either the creatures were useless or too strong such as lightningdragon, albino troll)

Enchanted Creatures(Several overpowered ones Opal Archangel/Hidden Guerrillias/hidden stag or opal arcolyth in combination with endless worm(9/9 5 mana with a minor drawback) and chiral chimes.

VerseCounters(There were useless ones as War Song and Overpowered ones such as Vile Requiem, Recantation(enjoy being put to be put back to round one))

Counter Switching(because it the end all counters got moved to a creature with "Cannot be target of spells and abilities)

I know that later cards had something like Morphing or other mechanics which required a lot of mana

"

Probably 4 Time Walks too.

Timewalk is only powerful if you can't counter them.
Another way to counter overpowered spells was to introdurce even more overpowered instants.
The key issue on MTG were legendary lands and permanents.
If somebody played Timewalk you dispelled it because players used timewalk only if they could pull of something that turned the game into counter->Countercounter->countercountercounter->countercountercountercounter.

The Magic Work Station showed trends to play either Graveyard, artifact based decks or simple card grinders, like Brimstone or Grindstone how that Tempest card was named(yeah I know that this card had many reprint attempts too) because literally everybody uses island as secondary color to counter spells.

So most commonly you play against white blue(+green/black), blue+black.
Only beginners rely on black+red, red+green, white+green(Blue+Red, Blue+Green are barely harmoming combinations and if you play them the enemy will know which combos you try to pull off)