POE: The Best of Games and the Worst of Games

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Chris wrote:

Skill matters in combat.

Skill is supposed to matter in combat, but whenever there is desync, it doesn't matter at all. Which is incredibly funny since whenever there is talk about desync, it is justified with the ability for players, to be able to dodge attacks/projectiles/spells.

Take the Vaal Oversoul for example. And before you go "WTFBBQ there's hardly any desync in the Vaal fight" ... let me explain.

I take Vaal Oversoul as an example because it's the incarnation of movement skill based fights. You are not supposed to survive the Vaal smash or lightning attack by any other means than movement skill. And while there is indeed hardly any desync in this fight, when it happens it's deadly. Last week I was watching a popular streamer (Devmoon) who grouped up with a friend to do Vaal. Both players are very seasoned and were properly geared up. So, the fight is going well, every single one of the abilities is dodged until, BAM!, his friend dies in an instant. The streamers could hardly conceive it. What happened? Desync. On his screen, the guy who died had run to the complete opposite side of the Vaal room, in order to avoid the Vaal smash, but on the server, his character had been running into Vaal and was stuck. This is what happens to skill and knowledge -every- -time- desync happens. It becomes void. Sometimes with fatal consequences. Which brings us back to the beginning of my post. What good does it, to have the indisputable awesome ability to dodge any attack/projectile/spell with skill, when the game client feeds you false information?

edit. Oh boy, that sounds too negative even for my taste. Okay, so apart from the (all too frequent :p ) times when the client feeds me false information, I very much enjoy the fact that skill has the possibility to matter in combat and it's awesome when it does :]

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Skill matters in races.

To a degree. But races = combat and for longer races, the Brutus fight is another good example of a movement/positioning based fight, that gets impossibly hard due to the massive desync I get every time I try to use the walls in Brutus chamber to avoid his hook and smash.

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Skill matters in PvP.

No, this I can't agree with at all. If two contestants enter the arena with such a huge difference in gear as is possible in PoE, skill doesn't matter.

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Skill matters in trading.

Sites like poexplorer.com and poe.xyz.is matter in trading.

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Skill matters when checking the vendor and knowing what to look for.

Agreed.

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Skill matters when looking at white items on the ground and realising that one of them has chromatic sockets or is a really high itemlevel.

Also agreed.

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Randomzx wrote:

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zriL wrote:

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Randomzx wrote:

I don't understand how a game could be considered hardcore when almost everything in the game is decided by RNG, even the desync.

RNG is and has always been hardcore. Learn your definitions, hardcore doesn't mean fair in any ways, it's actually the opposite.
People who bitch over RNG are too mentally weak for it and should play LoL instead.

No a Hardcore game is a game THAT DEPENDS PRIMARILY ON YOUR SKILL TO PLAY. There is hardly any skill if RNG determines too many stuff.

Dark Souls for example is a hardcore game. You can't rely on your equipment to pull your weight. And you can't rely on getting tons of hp because it won't help much. You are expected to play skillfully to survive.

Older Ninja Gaiden series are also hardcore games, because you rely on reflexes to survive.

Bullet hell games are hardcore games because a single hit kills you and there little to no room for error to survive.



By your definition dice rolling and slot machine is the most hardcore game ever.
Why don't YOU learn what the definition of hardcore games.

There is a reason why items are almost never allowed in competitive Super Smash Bros.

You just don't understand what is hardcore. Hardcore is about the time and effort necessary to play the game to the fullest. Skill oriented games are hardcore because you need to train a lot to acheive something in these games, but they aren't the only hardcore games. Slot machines are indeed very hardcore if you intend to win (which is stupid), by the way, being hardcore is often related to being crazy ^^ Because you're intended to lose. This is the gap between the games that want you to win and the games that want you to lose.

Hardcore is no fun by definition, people like it because it's thrilling and it's pushing them to the limit. The thrill to make it further, the thrill to get better stuff... This applies to every examples you mentioned.

poe should learn from d2 lod how to create a crafting system. not just crafting jewelery, flask, and currency, and left other "crafting" to gambling.

and hardcore means dedicated to play, not just by investing much time. but also tinkering to make an efficient way to beat the content.

In this genre, PoE is indeed hardcore. Is Ninja Gaiden 2 or Black harder? Well yes, as a game it is, but it all depends on the perspective and the genre.

In Ninja Gaiden you can die thousands of times (in NG2 there is actually an achievement for dying 1000 times, which you will get before you even hit Master Ninja difficulty). But it is an action-fighting game, it is based solely on your ability to play the game mechanically. While it took tons of effort and time to master those games, I didn't have to out it near the time of my poe play time (although I'll get to this later, the fact that somebody can find one item worth more than my entire playtime really detracts from this IMO).

With PoE it is a different type of game, and while agree that Ninja Gaiden is harder, it doesn't necessarily make it more hardcore. Where I do agree is this: the fact that anyone can find a Kaom's Heart in PoE and make enough currency from that single item to get insane gear and do any map with it takes away from the difficulty of the game.

But that isn't why people call PoE hardcore. What people mean by that is that it is a very deep, complex game, something you do not see anymore in most RPG type games. It is old school, it is hardcore. Thats really what it means. The game doesn't hold your hand, it is brutal in many ways.

And when it comes to racing, that shit is hard. Beating those people at the top of the ladder is near impossible. Poe is the kind of game that many people today wouldn't even play due to it's sheer complexity. And that isn't to mention the fact that it is truly difficult to get to say level 90 in a HC league. That shit isn't easy, lucky RNG or not. It comes down to your skill and knowledge of the game.

The fact that I'm only level 87 and already 300 something on the nemesis ladder shows that not many people make it to 90 and stay alive. It really did take a shit ton of time and effort to get only to 87. In terms of an RPG, for me, it is certainly "hardcore".

+1 to riddie.

Desync eliminates any skill you have. Only your gear and automated defences (like regen or aegis aurora) may save you there.

Skill matter in trading, of course, even with those sites. But game should be all around trading, we have Ebay for that purposes.

What this game need ATM?
1. Cheaper (in currency terms) access to endgame content (maps) for those who is able to farm it (clalenge VS reward). With recent changes to maps, i feel that developers are going the right way, however, they shouldnt stop there, and further imrovements will be highly welcomed.

2. More stable crafting. With recent vendor recipes added, i feel developers are going the right way, either. However, a further improvements are needed. I dont demand cheaper crafting, no. I just want more stable options there that reroll item through hundreds of orbs, where each try has equal and very low success chance.

3. Eliminate DESYNC. Seriously, desync ruins game more than any other issue. It has HUGE effect on balance, gameplay, itemization, hardcore leagues and so on. If you really want to make your game better - FIX DESYNC. I know, that may be hard, i know, that is an issue deep in the game engine, but anyway, fix it please. Even if you stop any updates for next 3 month, but eliminate desync instead, i believe most players will be eternaly grateful for that.

4. Improve performance issues. I feel you're going right way with certain effects changes, but there is a lot of work still. At least, give an option to reduce partilce effect's quality/density, that would be really helpful. PErformance issues (unlike desync) can be "fixed" with top-end engines, but not all of us are able to buy that.

5. Improve balance. Some abilities, gems, passives, items are almost never used, while others are used for almost every build.

I can see it, I can see it coming, Soon, GGG, very soon!!! :


Hopefully they will balance everything and make everyone happy.

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BoltThrower87 wrote:

In this genre, PoE is indeed hardcore. Is Ninja Gaiden 2 or Black harder? Well yes, as a game it is, but it all depends on the perspective and the genre.

In Ninja Gaiden you can die thousands of times (in NG2 there is actually an achievement for dying 1000 times, which you will get before you even hit Master Ninja difficulty). But it is an action-fighting game, it is based solely on your ability to play the game mechanically. While it took tons of effort and time to master those games, I didn't have to out it near the time of my poe play time (although I'll get to this later, the fact that somebody can find one item worth more than my entire playtime really detracts from this IMO).

With PoE it is a different type of game, and while agree that Ninja Gaiden is harder, it doesn't necessarily make it more hardcore. Where I do agree is this: the fact that anyone can find a Kaom's Heart in PoE and make enough currency from that single item to get insane gear and do any map with it takes away from the difficulty of the game.

But that isn't why people call PoE hardcore. What people mean by that is that it is a very deep, complex game, something you do not see anymore in most RPG type games. It is old school, it is hardcore. Thats really what it means. The game doesn't hold your hand, it is brutal in many ways.

And when it comes to racing, that shit is hard. Beating those people at the top of the ladder is near impossible. Poe is the kind of game that many people today wouldn't even play due to it's sheer complexity. And that isn't to mention the fact that it is truly difficult to get to say level 90 in a HC league. That shit isn't easy, lucky RNG or not. It comes down to your skill and knowledge of the game.

The fact that I'm only level 87 and already 300 something on the nemesis ladder shows that not many people make it to 90 and stay alive. It really did take a shit ton of time and effort to get only to 87. In terms of an RPG, for me, it is certainly "hardcore".

Indeed. That is, why PoE is mentioned a lot as a hardcore game.
This thread indicates 1 thing. PoE became more popular. The is a vast amount of players, who want a bit less punishing game, a bit more rewarding one, a bit less time consuming game; you know - more "casual players" discovered PoE and are voicing their opinion. Which is fine. To be honest I'm a casual player as well. I do think drop rates are balanced, but I also think that PoE might gain a lot of new players if it was not such "raw" game. U know - adapt or die type of game. I don't want any changes, but I do think they would make the game better - just not for me. Get on this path and you will end up like D3 - simple game for simple folks, with no depth at all.

I still think that increasing the drop rates of better uniques would not make PoE a less hardcore game, it would simply make it a better game. The overall drop rates can remain the same, just lower the drops of low lvl uniques, and increase the higher lvl ones.

Chris talks about thrill of waiting that next great drop, but what happens when it never drops? It just leads to frustration.

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Randomzx wrote:

No a Hardcore game is a game THAT DEPENDS PRIMARILY ON YOUR SKILL TO PLAY. There is hardly any skill if RNG determines too many stuff.

Dark Souls for example is a hardcore game. You can't rely on your equipment to pull your weight. And you can't rely on getting tons of hp because it won't help much. You are expected to play skillfully to survive.

Older Ninja Gaiden series are also hardcore games, because you rely on reflexes to survive.

Bullet hell games are hardcore games because a single hit kills you and there little to no room for error to survive.



By your definition dice rolling and slot machine is the most hardcore game ever.
Why don't YOU learn what the definition of hardcore games.

There is a reason why items are almost never allowed in competitive Super Smash Bros.

GGG just needs to read this. I believe things like Descent Champions are more HC than the normal leagues, period, but for those of us who cannot adjust to the awful racing timing or are uninterested on short events there is no long-term analogue.

I just hope they can come up with more interesting leagues and ideas, or custom leagues finally. GGG is too focussed on "economies" and "trading" to design interesting real HC long term leagues.

I must say though that stuff like Dominus fight and some of the new act 3x mob behaviour etc. are steeps in the right direction of adding to genuine difficulty as much as you can in a combat simplistic game like this. Anyway, I think they can improve the game in many areas to make it more interesting, fun, and hardcore /skill driven/.

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Odoakar wrote:

Chris talks about thrill of waiting that next great drop, but what happens when it never drops? It just leads to frustration.

Same goes for crafting. It's so thrilling to spend weeks on farming and then roll
+ lighting radius
+ life regen
+ 3 str
+ 7 hp

Not to mention 6linking thing.

And yes, since when casino = hardcore?