[1.0.1] HeavyUnit's 21k Single Target CI FP Crit Build!

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Markwerf wrote:

There isn't a cap on faster casting, i phrased it a bit poorly. I ment to say that faster casting will increase your DPS by at most what it sais but generally will always be less than that as you have other casting bonusses too. For example say your fasting casting gives you +40% faster casting but you also have +30% faster casting from gems/passives/gear. Then faster casting will only improve your dps by 1.7/1.3 = 1.3 ie 30%.
Simply put faster casting is lousy for the increase in dps it gives compared to the increase in mana usage especially since slower higher attacks are favored over faster lower attacks with a cold witch (freezes better since you reach the freeze threshold more).

If you somehow find yourself with a lot of mana then you need to be running GMP, generally GMP is too small of an upgrade over LMP to warrant the insane increase in mana it needs though, especially since the smaller arc of LMP plus more damage per shot of LMP is favorable over GMP.
I think the ideal 6 link setup is RGGBBB going with life leech - LMP - cold penetration - increased crit damage - increased critical strike - FP (lvl 20).
You get good damage and the mana is not so hard to sustain. GMP is possible if you use the mana leech gem but you need 3 green sockets since cold penetration is just a must.

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i have only 1 passive point put in mana regen and i sustain my GMP with mana leech without problem with just 1 mana pot. also cold pen is not a must

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Markwerf wrote:

Constructive discussion...

Thanks for some good discussion in the thread. But like I mentioned last week, I don't quite think the numbers add up, though I think the premise of your argument has been presented well. First off, the mana to run a 6L without mana leech is not sustainable in your setup unless you have insane mana regen, which is feasible (as I mentioned earlier in the thread) but you sacrifice a lot to get there. Given the gems you stated, I re-slotted my 6L to get some numbers.

My current mana consumption and DPS: FP - Faster Casting - LMP - Mana Leech - Life Leech - Increased Crit Damage

3.18 Casts/s * 69 mana per cast = 219.42 mana/s -> 7k dmg per proj (21k single target)

Your setup's mana consumption and DPS: FP - Life Leech - LMP - Cold Pen - Increased Crit Dmg - Increased Crit Strikes

2.43 Casts/s * 100 mana per cast = 243 mana/s -> 5.8k dmg per proj (17k single target)

I'm not sure if cold penetration simply adds 35% DPS since it bypasses the targets resistance to cold, but let's assume it does. The numbers here for single target would be 23k give or take depending on 20% quality or not.

I'd be interested in your setup if you are able to sustain this for constant spam. The thing here is, let's say you miss 1 cast in a second due to flask usage, then you've effectively cut your DPS by 40% in this case because you aren't dealing any damage if you can't cast due to mana problems.

The real discussion isn't really between Cold Pen or Faster casting though. You are advocating a complete removal of mana leech which I think is a mistake. And while you're assessment in your original post in reply to Peon discusses a diversity of damage bonuses, this can be augmented with gear and passives.

I'm also unsure of your math for freeze times. According to the wiki, the damage only gets calculated to determine if the damage will freeze at all. Once that is determined, freeze time is calculated based on the target's maximum HP. So while a harder shot would clear the threshold of some monsters better, the freeze time is not proportional to your damage, but instead to the target's life. The equation can be found here: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Freeze.

For this calculation the only thing that matters is the flat damage done at the time of the chance to freeze. Cold penetration absolutely helps, as it raises the threshold substantially on what targets you can freeze (by 35% which is a large number). The unfortunate part of this discussion is we can't truly know if the 35% is even needed though. Since we don't have information on monsters HP, natural resistances, and buffs then there is no way to tell if the 35% is actually useful in terms of necessity to freeze targets later in the game.

Clearly, at all stages in the game, cold penetration is good DPS. But, to me, using the 6L combination you proposed is not optimal because the overall DPS and utility increase is minimal while the consistency drops way off if not using mana leech. I would be interested to see the numbers comparing a 6L just replacing faster casting with cold penetration using mana leech with both.

Lastly, I have never had problems keeping mobs locked down in my current setup. And without mana leech, you shut yourself out of half / no regen maps. This is not a huge deal, but these are mods that add a lot of quantity % to maps and it's better to be flexible if you are running with a party.

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Heavyunit,

freeze time is proportional to the damage you deal, you can clearly read that from the formula in the page you linked. However the threshold value is also quite relevant, at higher level maps you will definately run into cases where your FP won't freeze enemies, usually uniques or rares but it does happen and can be relevant. It is easy to experience from just playing this is relevant, if you're easily freezing bosses / rares consistently you're generally breezing through those maps anyway.

As for the gem discussion, i've discussed it a couple times already now and it's quite simple. It's pretty much just about getting the highest sustainable DPS, ie taking the gems which provides the best dps increase for the least mana increase.
In this way, disregarding socketcolors at the moment, cold penetration is usually better than faster casting. I say usually because it depends on the exact specifics of your build but most of the times it will be true.
Faster casting increases DPS by 39% (lvl 20 no quality for this discussion, doesn't really matter which basepoint for comparison) if you have no other casting speed bonusses but generally you will. It also increases mana usage by quite a bit though, 1.20 * 1.39 = 1.67 if you have no other bonusses, less if you do but then your dps bonus is worse too.
Cold penetration dps increase depends on the resistance of the enemies, if they have no resistance increase is 35% (lvl 20 no q) but if they have resistances it will be (much) more and it will be less if they have negative resistances (due to frostbite for example). Cost multiplier is 1.5.
Generally cold penetration will simply increase dps more for less mana compared to faster casting with the benefit of cold penetration being especially good against mobs that are hard for you, those with cold resistances while being worse against easy mobs. Generally speaking it is better to have effects that make mobs closer to eachother in difficulty, in analogy you can think of it being easier to ride a flat road than one with uphill and downhill parts.


Mana leech can be a fine gem and it's up to you if you run it, often I just think it's a bit of a waste of a slot though as it's not so hard to sustain mana without it. I run the 6l setup i proposed earlier no problems while hardly having much mana regeneration on gear ( i believe 45%) and not taking many mana passives. I think especially in a CI build where you have other reasons to equip dream fragments already you shouldn't have much problems running without mana leech, at least in these sort of configurations.
It may be possible that mana leech is worth it but I would run far greedier then, for example i would look at running GMP instead of LMP then.
In the end it's just a bit of puzzling choosing between options to get the highest effective DPS considering the gear you run. On energy shield only gear it's quite conceivable that more than 2 green sockets is a pain to get so i can imagine faster casting instead of cold penetration becomes an option then etc. It's not only about efficiency but also efficacy, available options, interaction with your build and passives etc. Also it's worth noting most differences are minimal so even though cold penetration might generally be better it will just be a smallish difference so don't worry too much about it.

Also of course you should switch out gems for some map mods. Mana leech is great to bring in for no/half regen maps which is another reason I like running without it even more. Bringing it in will nicely balance out for those maps then. Besides cold penetration shines even more at maps where high cold resist occurs, for example with elemental equilibrium. Cold penetration can effectively double dps at those maps, faster casting will also do the same mediocre ~30%.

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I don't have anything to add, but thanks for writing the guide, and thanks to the other posters who have written out constructive criticisms or just general information.

Edit: Thought of a question. I'm wondering what the order of importance is for gem quality after freezing pulse.

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Markwerf wrote:

More good discussion

Yeah I absolutely was reading the wiki wrong on freeze times. It's kind of confusing. It should be stated in the wiki that every critical strike guarantees a freeze on the enemy. The way the equation is written I thought that if you were above the threshold (life divided by 3) then the time is then based off that number since it states in the equations that N then = L / 3. But they mean that as the highest threshold. So my bad on that. You are right. However, like you said it's only an issue against rare mobs in the highest maps, which is rather niche.

For me, regardless of pure dps, I prefer the cast speed because you score more crits if you are casting faster. That much is true. As I mentioned, Cold Pen is no doubt better DPS.

As far as not using mana leech, I still disagree with you. I'd like to see a video of you running a 6L in party and solo play with no mana leech. My math still holds true for that. 200+ mana per second drain simply can't be sustained. DPS is only accurate if there are no breaks in casting, regardless of your cast speed. In solo play it may be more viable, since monster health is lower due to no party multiplier. In party play though, if you need to attack mobs for several seconds to clear them, and you have to break every second for flask consumption (interrupting constant spam or casting) then your DPS will not be accurate. This is what makes an item like soul taker so good, for example. Regardless of mana drain, you continue attacking, which gives better overall dps and no need for any type of mana leech.

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johnbeans wrote:

Just ignore Makavelit0t0.

I don't have anything to add, but thanks for writing the guide, and thanks to the other posters who have written out constructive criticisms or just general information.

Edit: Thought of a question. I'm wondering what the order of importance is for gem quality after freezing pulse.

Sorry for the double post. I would get LMP/GMP to 20/20 after FP. Then your other damage gems. If you're running Cold Pen then I would do this one after LMP/GMP then your crit gems.

Thanks for the awesome guide. I just started POE and so far I haven't had a hard time soloing until the start of act 3 which is where my level 28 character is at. Looking forward to the progressing of my character.

I am new to Witch, and I made similiar build, however I am noticing that if you play solo you are pretty much screwed.

For example Perpetus, I come, he puts bear trap and locks me in place and destryos with 1 or 2 shots, absolutely no way to avoid that. What do you people use to avoid such situations? I am originaly melee player, and I am not used to standing behind meatshield and press same key all over again,and when solo, having no chance to play.

Maybe it's my problem, but before giving up on this class entirely I'd like to know if I'm doing something wrong, which I probably do, seeing HC Witches pulling it through (but not sure if solo or carried by team).

Thx.

Perpetus is commonly known as the noob killer. When farming City Of Sarn, you always walk on the bottom-left of the map, so you won't meet him and feed him :)
Seriously though, most people never actually kill Perpetus for exactly that reason. But you can also improce your survivability by getting more HP if you feel like it. In my opinion, farming Perpetus is like farming Kole. A dangerous waste of time and XP.