1.0 Passive Tree

my only problem with this is blood magic or mind drinker, i think abilities cost far too much mana in this game and you just have to use blood magic or you gotta focus too much of your passives on having enough mana

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Autocthon wrote:

Reducing ability to go everywhere does not equate to reducing variance and player choice. It forces creativity in how you accomplish getting to other areas, or forces you to consider an alternative build if it simply cannot work on a class.

so it doesnt reduce variance or choice, it just means some builds 'simply cannot work' now so you have less choice and variance?

the classes arnt exactly the same right now, its no freebie to start a build from any class, thats simply not a realistic take on whats currently happening.

this doesnt bother me at all..... yet ive never made a build that geos through the center of the tree.... or even come close to it. LIVE A LITTLE. WHO NEEDS VAAL PACT? IF YA NEED VAAL PACT UR DMG IS TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HIGH. just a personal opinion..... i enjyo a challenge.... i dont enjoy just running thru a game wreckin shit---- this is when the game gets tossed IMO. good luck , have fun.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

Reducing ability to go everywhere does not equate to reducing variance and player choice. It forces creativity in how you accomplish getting to other areas, or forces you to consider an alternative build if it simply cannot work on a class.

so it doesnt reduce variance or choice, it just means some builds 'simply cannot work' now so you have less choice and variance?

the classes arnt exactly the same right now, its no freebie to start a build from any class, thats simply not a realistic take on whats currently happening.

Do you understand the concept of trade-offs?

Trading a small amount of per-class "variability" for a greater total variability among all classes. That is the point of making classes get creative if they want to be spcial snowflakes (or if they want to cherrypick every good keynode.

And yes, right now the high level builds are ALL being constructed in such a way that t average sporker can be built from Witch/Templar/Marauder and have no here is no great effective difference in the build between 2 or more start positions.

Your average sporker build is effective equivalent when built from any the Templar/Marauder/Witch start positions. Any ES GR+CI+US+VP (+/1 CI) is for all intents and purposes the same build whether from Witch/Shadow/Duelist/Templar. That's how much difference there is there. Unless you want to talk about *ridiculously* niche and focused builds that can only work because of a literal 1 node difference from start positions there's no real reason to choose any given class beyond aesthetics given the way stats work at the upper end.

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Autocthon wrote:

Do you understand the concept of trade-offs?

Trading a small amount of per-class "variability" for a greater total variability among all classes.

but there isnt greater total variability, there is less.

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Autocthon wrote:

And yes, right now the high level builds are ALL being constructed in such a way that t average sporker can be built from Witch/Templar/Marauder and have no here is no great effective difference in the build between 2 or more start positions.

Your average sporker build is effective equivalent when built from any the Templar/Marauder/Witch start positions. Any ES GR+CI+US+VP (+/1 CI) is for all intents and purposes the same build whether from Witch/Shadow/Duelist/Templar. That's how much difference there is there. Unless you want to talk about *ridiculously* niche and focused builds that can only work because of a literal 1 node difference from start positions there's no real reason to choose any given class beyond aesthetics given the way stats work at the upper end.

do these sporkers go through the middle? oh no, thats right, they go around the outside. so you pull out an example of a current build that you feel is broken (its not btw, thats just ur take) and yet this build doesnt go through the middle, will not be changed by this tree. Where as a crit dagger ageis witch, which can only be started from witch or shadow, is completely fucked.

You see a lot of crit dagger marauders? Crit pulse duelists? Groundslam blood magic shadows? This idea that any build can start from anywhere is just wrong, you are flat out wrong, and the one example you give of a build who can start in 3 places isnt even touched by this patch which means you have no point to what you are saying.

If the release comes with this changes, the game is gone for me and my money was wasted.

Just my 2 cent!

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

Do you understand the concept of trade-offs?

Trading a small amount of per-class "variability" for a greater total variability among all classes.

but there isnt greater total variability, there is less.

that is literally unquantifiable. Seriously, without actually testing the changes they make you cannot make that claim, but given how any similar systems have worked in the past reducing per-class variability is much more likely to open additional forms of creativity than to stifle them. In other words it's more likely that stifling direct ability to "do whatever you want" will increase player creativity. That is a very very common theme in RPG style games.

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Autocthon wrote:

And yes, right now the high level builds are ALL being constructed in such a way that t average sporker can be built from Witch/Templar/Marauder and have no here is no great effective difference in the build between 2 or more start positions.

Your average sporker build is effective equivalent when built from any the Templar/Marauder/Witch start positions. Any ES GR+CI+US+VP (+/1 CI) is for all intents and purposes the same build whether from Witch/Shadow/Duelist/Templar. That's how much difference there is there. Unless you want to talk about *ridiculously* niche and focused builds that can only work because of a literal 1 node difference from start positions there's no real reason to choose any given class beyond aesthetics given the way stats work at the upper end.

do these sporkers go through the middle? oh no, thats right, they go around the outside. so you pull out an example of a current build that you feel is broken (its not btw, thats just ur take) and yet this build doesnt go through the middle, will not be changed by this tree. Where as a crit dagger ageis witch, which can only be started from witch or shadow, is completely fucked.

I do not, at any point, imply I think spork is a broken or OP build. You assume that. What I state is that for all intents and purposes there is no reaosn to start in one class over another when making that build. Additionally a "crit dagger aegis witch" will see little to no actual change once the inner circle is gone. Because a "crit dagger aegis witch" will be able to, and this is important, naturally extend into the shadow area even without the middle bridge. All the middle bridge does is make the initial extension slightly less expensive and ghive you VP for free (because that's what you're really complaining about).

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You see a lot of crit dagger marauders? Crit pulse duelists? Groundslam blood magic shadows? This idea that any build can start from anywhere is just wrong, you are flat out wrong, and the one example you give of a build who can start in 3 places isnt even touched by this patch which means you have no point to what you are saying.

You completely miss the point. Completely over your head.

Yes there are builds that don't exist (though I guarantee you can get a functional anything if you actually try, the only difference will be a small amount of optimization that matters very little if at all in the end). The fact that these builds don't exist has no bearing on the fact that the builds that do exist are for all intents and purposes starting class agnostic.

Wouldn't the answer be, assuming they cut off middle-tree-travel, that if you were, for example, a Marauder who spec'd into the Ranger area - to just instead create a duelist and spec into both the Marauder and Ranger area?

I am pretty sure you can end up with virtually* the same build, late game, with just a different way of having gotten there...

More generally, when I see someone post a build that started with one of the three primaries and then spec'd a little or a lot into one of the other primaries, wouldn't the answer now be to start at the hybrid between and spec from there into both? That would different, but not necessarily inferior.


*I say 'virtually' because I don't have a copy of the new tree for a comparison and who knows what build someone has who is reading this and not posting anyway.


I get that many like a specific starting character itself (model, voice work, etc), and I agree, so this is one thing that would be a definite negative (if the new tree limits middle-tree-travel) - but you would hope they get off their asses and get that transaction for model swapping out sooner rather than later. I have wanted to role a Shadow that looks like the Duelist for a while now since I really dislike the well documented spinal problems of the Shadow.

(source)

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Myth #1 - Rules Are Obstacles To Creativity

This is probably the biggest myth that causes people to lash out against the rules. The problem is that this myth is based upon a false assumption. People like to believe that a world of infinite choices is more conducive to creativity than a world of finite choices. Essentially, the more choices available, the more chance for creative thought.

Unfortunately, scientific exploration into the means of creative thought has proven this not to be true. Testing has shown that restrictions actually aid creative thought. How is this possible? The answer rests in the human mind. It turns out that the mind isn’t good at completely open-ended choices. When faced with total freedom of options the brain retreats to known pathways. It simply repeats what worked last time it was in this situation.

Let’s take an example. Suppose I locked a talented writer in a room. Once a week, I force him to write a short story. On the odd weeks, I let him write whatever he wants. On the even weeks, I give him a topic he has to write about. Will he be more creative on the odd or the even weeks? Research shows that the even weeks far outstrip the odd weeks.

Why? Because the even weeks force the writer’s mind to new areas of thought. Perhaps the writer would never think to write a story about a trapeze artist, but tell him he has to write about the circus and the writer heads down pathways he’s never tapped. In fact, experienced writers understand this phenomenon and thus build restrictions for themselves.

I used the above example as it parallels the writing of a weekly column. The non-theme weeks are much more brutal to write than the theme weeks. [Game] design is no different. Tell me I can do anything and my mind retreats to old [strategies I've used]. Tell me [that a certain mechanic isn't an effective solution anymore] and my brain starts firing away.

Thread needs more of this and less boo-hooing.

What bothers me in the image of the 1.0 passive tree is not that access is blocked, but that it is not blocked relative to the top half of the tree while remaining blocked to the bottom; my entire objection was based on symmetry, and as long as it's symmetrical in terms of jumping paths, I don't much care.

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that is literally unquantifiable.

as is your assertion in the other direction, didnt stop you thinking you were right.

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I do not, at any point, imply I think spork is a broken or OP build. You assume that. What I state is that for all intents and purposes there is no reaosn to start in one class over another when making that build.

right, you point out that there is no reason to start it as one class or the other, because you are trying to make the point that this situation exists in the game and that this patch is stopping that and its a good thing, but its not stopping the example you give. Have you forgot your own point? Because I havent.

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Additionally a "crit dagger aegis witch" will see little to no actual change once the inner circle is gone. Because a "crit dagger aegis witch" will be able to, and this is important, naturally extend into the shadow area even without the middle bridge. All the middle bridge does is make the initial extension slightly less expensive and ghive you VP for free (because that's what you're really complaining about).

what are you talking about? Have you played this game much? the middle bridge will make the extension into the shadow easier and give you vp for free? No witch goes to the shadow through the middle are you crazy? Naturally extend into? You cant help but find youself there after 30 points spent, its right next door and full of nodes huge amounts of witches get 'close to home' before they go off somewhere interesting. Vp is on the opposite side of the circle to the witch and shadow corner, you dont go there on your way to the shadow, sacrificing tens upon 10s of points and then call it 'free'. You dont go to the shadow at all from the middle, you get the witch and shadow nodes, then come down between them and grab conduit and vaal pact on your way out to get mind + matter, body + soul and the phalanx nodes in the templar area.


We dont have infinite choice, we cant cherry pick nodes atm, I cant do that on my withc and get unwavering stance, or iron reflexes, or hex master, theres a shit ton of great nodes I could 'cherry pick' but cant because we are forced to make hard choices, the middle is a hard choice already as its a points massacre, you sacrifice much to do these builds, and were talking about a lot of builds. Theres give and take, removing these builds does not boost creativity, it stifles it as now you can only get certain nodes and dont make a choice between unwavering and iron reflexes vs crt and armour nodes, the builds just cant be made at all and hence possibility is diminished. Were not just tlaking about 1 kind of witch here, were talking builds that use every class and virtually ever skill gem.

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You completely miss the point. Completely over your head.

Yes there are builds that don't exist (though I guarantee you can get a functional anything if you actually try, the only difference will be a small amount of optimization that matters very little if at all in the end). The fact that these builds don't exist has no bearing on the fact that the builds that do exist are for all intents and purposes starting class agnostic.

no, not over my head at all, your point was that builds are 'class agnostic' atm which is wrong and that build diversity will not be brought down despite builds that currently exist not existing after, which is again wrong, its not over my head, you just flip around and forget the point you are arguing.