What makes a bow good?

I don't know tiki, I read what you've posted and I have to say that all sounds good but enemies can't evade from the lionseye is a huge benefit when you are trying to crit.

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MonstaMunch wrote:

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tikitaki wrote:

it doesn't really matter. i just said the one you mentioned would be sufficient to win against a lioneye, so you can use that example as the basis.

It does matter, because you're giving specific figures that don't seem to be based on any specific item. He was giving an example of 5 perfect mods, which I already said from the start can beat a lioneyes (I think my words were "6 near perfect").

The OP was asking about good bows because he can't afford a Lioneyes. A thicket with the mods you're talking about would cost many times more than a Lioneyes, and would be far harder to obtain.

well then what are we arguing about

it seems we all agree

i specifically stated a lioneye was the most cost effective bow.

the argument against better rare bows seems to be their expense. i would agree that expense is by far the biggest downside.

but i do think lioneye is obtainable by the casual player. just get into a stable farming position and hoard currency and buy it. going on detours to stack magic find is encouraged.

4 or 5 exalts is not a lot. it can seem like a kingly sum when you are just starting, but lets get real. you can farm that even casually as long as you are smart about your orb management and keep stacking magic find.

a lioneye is well worth saving up for, but it's not the end of the line.

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justinloase wrote:

I don't know tiki, I read what you've posted and I have to say that all sounds good but enemies can't evade from the lionseye is a huge benefit when you are trying to crit.

It is, but your crit chance is the net of your base crit chance (the crit chance on your bow alone) and the total crit chance on your gear/passives/power charges.

So while 10 - 15% higher chance to hit sounds like a lot, it's nothing compared to the 36% crit chance you lose. You crit far more often with a rare bow - even after taking into account the fact that you are missing.

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tikitaki wrote:

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Nephalim wrote:

Are you assuming your thicket bow is some sort of perfect 5 modder?
phys%,phys flat, light or phys/acc , ias , 38 crit?

i dont think it takes a "perfect 5 modder" to beat a lioneye, and i dont really agree that those mods are "perfect," but i think that they would be sufficient to beat a lioneye.

so if you want to run some numbers on those you should lol, it will be a lot more effective than LG

You need 5 almost perfect mods to beat Lioneye. You won't find many bows with pDPS higher than 300 other than Lioneye, and you also want crit mod with it. Bows you are talking about are mirror worthy. Just do some researches man. Good Lioneye is 310+ DPS. Find me at least 3 bows which are for sale, which aren't worthy 50+ex, 310+ DPS and have crit chance to compensate not 100% accuracy.

Well the point is, such an item does not exist and if it did you'd need to shell out a mirror + fee for it and have accommodating + accuracy gear that other good stats which is few dozen extra exalts. imaginary mirror items can not be the bases of a build.

Theory crafting is cute and all but in terms of practicality and cost effectiveness nothing can beat a lions eye in terms of damage output (when using hatred + blackgleam) and nothing can beat a voltaxic in terms of reflect mitigation.

The bow tiers are as follow listed by dps/utility:

1)perfect thickets
2)voltaxic
3)lionseye
3)sub 300 dps tri ele bows or phys/ele thickets

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CookieVortex wrote:

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tikitaki wrote:

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Nephalim wrote:

Are you assuming your thicket bow is some sort of perfect 5 modder?
phys%,phys flat, light or phys/acc , ias , 38 crit?

i dont think it takes a "perfect 5 modder" to beat a lioneye, and i dont really agree that those mods are "perfect," but i think that they would be sufficient to beat a lioneye.

so if you want to run some numbers on those you should lol, it will be a lot more effective than LG

You need 5 almost perfect mods to beat Lioneye. You won't find many bows with pDPS higher than 300 other than Lioneye, and you also want crit mod with it. Bows you are talking about are mirror worthy. Just do some researches man. Good Lioneye is 310+ DPS. Find me at least 3 bows which are for sale, which aren't worthy 50+ex, 310+ DPS and have crit chance to compensate not 100% accuracy.

impossible. that was my whole point.

lioneye is the most cost effective bow. it's beatable, it's just costly to beat.

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Nephalim wrote:

can beat a voltaxic in terms of reflect mitigation.

Vaal Pact is how you beat all the reflect mechanics. Voltaxic alone doesn't work alone, because it leaves you wide open to lightning thorns. Sure, it isn't labeled as "reflect" but it's basically the same thing except it returns flat damage. You could call it "a" reflect mechanic.

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tikitaki wrote:

4 or 5 exalts is not a lot.

Not a lot? Sweet, let me have 5 exalts since its nothing lol

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tikitaki wrote:

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Nephalim wrote:

can beat a voltaxic in terms of reflect mitigation.

Vaal Pact is how you beat all the reflect mechanics. Voltaxic alone doesn't work alone, because it leaves you wide open to lightning thorns. Sure, it isn't labeled as "reflect" but it's basically the same thing except it returns flat damage. You could call it "a" reflect mechanic.

Youre right, and thats exactly why vaal pact is such a broken mechanic.

You are greatly under-valuing accuracy. Going from 100% accuracy to 74% in your example is a 26% dps loss. If you assume the same example where you go from a crit chance of .33 to .45, you would need a crit multiplier of roughly 300% to break even.

.12(crit chance)*300%(crit multiplier)*3/4(to account for the accuracy loss)=.27

Not saying this isn't doable, it certainly is, but you are just asking to 1 shot yourself on reflect. Not to mention in order to get these numbers you are going to need gear that will probably be way more than a lioneye. And it just sucks missing on attacks that often losing a lot of leech.

My crit multiplier is 500% currently, and will be 520% in one more level.

;)

And I have never even come *close* to 1-shotting myself with reflect. I did the numbers in some other thread, but it worked out that you would need deal something like 80,000 damage on a single arrow (POST monster damage mitigation) to reasonably 1-shot yourself.

i don't know any archers who even have 80,000 tooltip dps, let alone ones who could deal 80k on a single arrow. you'd have to REALLY try.

with vaal pact, its all about keeping your resists capped. as long as they are capped, you are fine.

edit: i'd like to point out that it's fairly trivial to achieve 85% accuracy, and with just a couple good accuracy pieces you can hit 90%