1. GGG will spend time designing, setting up and maintaining a SFL. This can mean resources will be denied from fixing these issues on other leagues.
As I've mentioned before, I don't believe this is true. GGG already have resources allocated to creating new leagues.
"
Novalisk wrote:
2. GGG may see less incentive in fixing these issues on other leagues after SFL is introduced.
I can't see that happening. GGG are committed to the current regime and the addition of new leagues. All will need to be maintained equally.
"
Novalisk wrote:
3. Player population is already spread thin through-out the leagues. Introducing a new league (perhaps even two for sc/hc) will split the community even further which makes grouping harder.
There are always going to be additional leagues, as well as races short and long. SFL is just one more addition.
"
Novalisk wrote:
4. Due to the variety of requests raised by SFL promoters, the likelyhood of GGG implementing a self-found league that pleases all SFL promoters are slim.
Unfortunately, whilst there have been suggestions as to the way SFL should work, there's never really been a consensus. What's really needed, is for Chris to tell us what he believes the issues are, then we can move forward.
"
Novalisk wrote:
5. With the trading aspect out of the game, the supply&demand aspect will also be gone. This means that builds which were balanced by the economy will no longer be. The strongest builds may be just as easy to get as the weaker builds, making the choice easy and reducing build diversity for self-found players.
I completely disagree. With trading I can simply copy any cookie-cuter build from the forums and buy the necessary items to play. Without trading builds will have to me more diverse, as one only has found and crafted items to play with.
"
Novalisk wrote:
As for crafting being "hopeless", I'll copy what I wrote in another thread:
Spoiler
Currency is getting traded away instead of being used for crafting by the vast majority of players. Increasing currency drop rate as you said won't change a thing, and adding a bind-on-pickup mechanic is just taking options away from the player.
What needs to happen, is to reduce the gap between the rich and the poor. Let me explain:
If I get an exalted orb drop, trading it away is pretty much my only way to get other items. This is because the overwhelming majority of good items are held by the top percentage of players. Contrary to popular belief, it isn't just because they have more time on their hands, it's because they stack MF and are willing to put up with the uncomfortable ways of selling their gear.
I sincerely believe that if MF becomes non-mandatory, and selling your items becomes a more comfortable experience, then the playing field will be even, and more players would be incentivized to use currency instead of trading it away. In other words, the current methods of "Getting ahead" are boring. If the game encouraged actually playing the game instead of maintaining a forum thread, and doing challenging maps instead of farming docks, then end-game will become a more balanced playground, and the effect of only the top percent being "allowed" to use top orbs will be diminished.
I understand your point of view and GGG have promised a better trading system, however, I don't believe they will change the game, the current leagues anyway, in any significant way that would incentivise people to 'craft' when trading is an option.
1. GGG will spend time designing, setting up and maintaining a SFL. This can mean resources will be denied from fixing these issues on other leagues.
As I've mentioned before, I don't believe this is true. GGG already have resources allocated to creating new leagues.
These resources are going into creating the next two leagues, which will be equivalent to anarchy and onslaught. There aren't any people sitting around waiting for new leagues to implement. Also, GGG is a fairly small company. There isn't an entire department dedicated to creating leagues, so these people could most likely be allocated to a variety of other things including improving the current end-game on all leagues.
"
Kellog wrote:
"
Novalisk wrote:
2. GGG may see less incentive in fixing these issues on other leagues after SFL is introduced.
I can't see that happening. GGG are committed to the current regime and the addition of new leagues. All will need to be maintained equally.
GGG are committed to adding the new leagues which are equivalent to Onslaught/Anarchy. You're not asking them to have SFL as the new equivalent leagues, you're asking them to create and maintain more leagues, which requires more effort.
"
Kellog wrote:
"
Novalisk wrote:
3. Player population is already spread thin through-out the leagues. Introducing a new league (perhaps even two for sc/hc) will split the community even further which makes grouping harder.
There are always going to be additional leagues, as well as races short and long. SFL is just one more addition.
The only additional leagues we know of apart from ladder leagues(anarchy/onslaught) and hardcore/standard are player-made leagues, which we haven't heard about in ages. You're making a baseless assumption.
"
Kellog wrote:
"
Novalisk wrote:
5. With the trading aspect out of the game, the supply&demand aspect will also be gone. This means that builds which were balanced by the economy will no longer be. The strongest builds may be just as easy to get as the weaker builds, making the choice easy and reducing build diversity for self-found players.
I completely disagree. With trading I can simply copy any cookie-cuter build from the forums and buy the necessary items to play. Without trading builds will have to me more diverse, as one only has found and crafted items to play with.
No, you can't simply copy any build. The most powerful and popular builds have more expensive items, which serves as a balancing feature. If you want to get the most powerful build, you have to pay a lot more, which means the profit margins between build with X effectiveness and build with 0.8X effectiveness favor 0.8X short term and favor X long term. Balance.
Without trading, you can just go for the most efficient build from the get-go because the weaker ones aren't any cheaper. Self-found encourages rolling the best build no matter what as far as efficiency is concerned.
"
Kellog wrote:
"
Novalisk wrote:
As for crafting being "hopeless", I'll copy what I wrote in another thread:
Spoiler
Currency is getting traded away instead of being used for crafting by the vast majority of players. Increasing currency drop rate as you said won't change a thing, and adding a bind-on-pickup mechanic is just taking options away from the player.
What needs to happen, is to reduce the gap between the rich and the poor. Let me explain:
If I get an exalted orb drop, trading it away is pretty much my only way to get other items. This is because the overwhelming majority of good items are held by the top percentage of players. Contrary to popular belief, it isn't just because they have more time on their hands, it's because they stack MF and are willing to put up with the uncomfortable ways of selling their gear.
I sincerely believe that if MF becomes non-mandatory, and selling your items becomes a more comfortable experience, then the playing field will be even, and more players would be incentivized to use currency instead of trading it away. In other words, the current methods of "Getting ahead" are boring. If the game encouraged actually playing the game instead of maintaining a forum thread, and doing challenging maps instead of farming docks, then end-game will become a more balanced playground, and the effect of only the top percent being "allowed" to use top orbs will be diminished.
I understand your point of view and GGG have promised a better trading system, however, I don't believe they will change the game, the current leagues anyway, in any significant way that would incentivise people to 'craft' when trading is an option.
I'll re-iterate my point as it seems you missed it.
The real reason you are encouraged to trade exalted orbs away instead of using them, is because other players have the gear you want. Those other players have that gear because their playstyle is the most efficient. Most efficient currently is also extremely boring (tradespam, forum maintenance, farming docks), and the efficiency difference between someone who gets MF and invests time into trading and someone who doesn't is huge. This can be fixed, this should be fixed, and this will allow more people to use top orbs without feeling bad about it.
1. GGG will spend time designing, setting up and maintaining a SFL. This can mean resources will be denied from fixing these issues on other leagues.
2. GGG may see less incentive in fixing these issues on other leagues after SFL is introduced.
3. Player population is already spread thin through-out the leagues. Introducing a new league (perhaps even two for sc/hc) will split the community even further which makes grouping harder.
4. Due to the variety of requests raised by SFL promoters, the likelyhood of GGG implementing a self-found league that pleases all SFL promoters are slim.
5. With the trading aspect out of the game, the supply&demand aspect will also be gone. This means that builds which were balanced by the economy will no longer be. The strongest builds may be just as easy to get as the weaker builds, making the choice easy and reducing build diversity for self-found players.
Bhuahahaha
This past has totally no sense to exist, please delete it
They are the same fucking reasons other users said at page 20-30. After they received answers they vanished
So yes, let's wait for Chris or another guy to tell wtf is going on or I'm just losing time here hoping for something that will never happen and I'll just wait for the offline crack (just a matter of time, there was already one for D3 after seven months, imagine for PoE)
i like this game. i mean have you seen how powerful is the barbarian
As I said before, a league with increased drop rates is too effective a lure, I think. I believe it would pull so many people from trading leagues that self found players and traders would simply trade places in terms of who is at a marked disadvantage. Right now the way the game is made creates an environment in which self found play is under-supported. Alternatively, pulling too many players away from trade leagues to SFL creates an environment in which the trading play style is wholly under supported.
Whilst it's true that increasing the drop rate of orbs is an option for SFL, I've even suggested it myself in the past, I don't believe it's the only possible option, nor is it necessarily the best solution. However, even if the rate were increased, it would have to be a substantial increase to keep people away from the easy option of trading and that's highly unlikely to happen.
"
Thaelyn wrote:
You may be right that any such migration would be short lived. My concern centers around the possibility that it wouldn't be. I don't want to see GGG drive away any of it's players, whether they prefer self found, solo, trading, grouping, or standing on one leg atop Brutus' corpse hula hooping and singing Lady Gaga. I think creating a separate league, as it has been requested, represents an inordinate risk in doing so, as does doing nothing.
I don't believe GGG will do anything to jeopardise the current situation. So, even if we get SFL, I'm sure it won't be at the expense of those wishing to play the trading game. Let's face it, the whole game is currently built around that premise.
"
Thaelyn wrote:
I'll concede that crafting may not be the best name for the system as it is implemented in PoE.
Spoiler
When I use the word, please understand that I'm referring to taking a piece of equipment and through the random addition or re-rolling of modifications, making it into more than it was to begin with.
I know I'm definitely in the minority with this view, but I actually like the wild randomness of the system. It is, as it has been described numerous times, like a slot machine. The issue, though, is that (to continue this analogy) when you walk into the PoE casino, the house tells you that you may only pull the slot 2 or 3 times. If you want more tries, you have to give your winnings to someone else in exchange for their 2 or 3 pulls.
I have no problem with randomness either but as things currently stand there's simply no reason to use orbs, at any level, other than for trade. That's the perfect solution for those wishing to progress via this path but it's completely against the grain for self-found players.
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Thaelyn wrote:
I do agree that the radical changes that I personally think are needed are unlikely. That said, I think the league described in this and the suggestion thread are equally unlikely.
I hope you're wrong but only time will tell. Unfortunately, until we hear from Chris and understand what he sees as the issues with the current proposals, we're not going anywhere.
These resources are going into creating the next two leagues, which will be equivalent to anarchy and onslaught. There aren't any people sitting around waiting for new leagues to implement. Also, GGG is a fairly small company. There isn't an entire department dedicated to creating leagues, so these people could most likely be allocated to a variety of other things including improving the current end-game on all leagues.
GGG are committed to adding the new leagues which are equivalent to Onslaught/Anarchy. You're not asking them to have SFL as the new equivalent leagues, you're asking them to create and maintain more leagues, which requires more effort.
With all due respect, I believe you're being a little naive.
"
Novalisk wrote:
The only additional leagues we know of apart from ladder leagues(anarchy/onslaught) and hardcore/standard are player-made leagues, which we haven't heard about in ages. You're making a baseless assumption.
It doesn't follow that, just because the pay leagues haven't been mentioned, there aren't people working on them and they aren't going to happen. We do after all, have the release in a few weeks, so I'd imagine all resources are allocated to that. However, the pay leagues could be part of that.
"
Novalisk wrote:
No, you can't simply copy any build. The most powerful and popular builds have more expensive items, which serves as a balancing feature. If you want to get the most powerful build, you have to pay a lot more, which means the profit margins between build with X effectiveness and build with 0.8X effectiveness favor 0.8X short term and favor X long term. Balance.
Without trading, you can just go for the most efficient build from the get-go because the weaker ones aren't any cheaper. Self-found encourages rolling the best build no matter what as far as efficiency is concerned.
Regardless of cost or time required to accumulate the necessary currency to finish a build, it's still feasible for anyone to accomplish with trading enabled. With regard to what you consider balance, this can be equated to found/crafted in SFL.
"
Novalisk wrote:
I'll re-iterate my point as it seems you missed it.
The real reason you are encouraged to trade exalted orbs away instead of using them, is because other players have the gear you want. Those other players have that gear because their playstyle is the most efficient. Most efficient currently is also extremely boring (tradespam, forum maintenance, farming docks), and the efficiency difference between someone who gets MF and invests time into trading and someone who doesn't is huge. This can be fixed, this should be fixed, and this will allow more people to use top orbs without feeling bad about it.
I understood your point perfectly, thank you. Regardless, stacking MF makes some aspects of the game easier, particularly for those who trade. For self-found players increased MF, more often than not, only provides more vendor trash.
Whilst I agree MF needs adjustment, making trade easier will only encourage people to make more use of it, not to simply replace it with crafting. The only way for that balance to change is via considerable reduction in RNG.
These resources are going into creating the next two leagues, which will be equivalent to anarchy and onslaught. There aren't any people sitting around waiting for new leagues to implement. Also, GGG is a fairly small company. There isn't an entire department dedicated to creating leagues, so these people could most likely be allocated to a variety of other things including improving the current end-game on all leagues.
GGG are committed to adding the new leagues which are equivalent to Onslaught/Anarchy. You're not asking them to have SFL as the new equivalent leagues, you're asking them to create and maintain more leagues, which requires more effort.
With all due respect, I believe you're being a little naive.
Just how does GGG is creating new leagues equate to creating more leagues in addition to those? GGG's resources aren't unlimited, and to think that is being naive.
"
Kellog wrote:
"
Novalisk wrote:
The only additional leagues we know of apart from ladder leagues(anarchy/onslaught) and hardcore/standard are player-made leagues, which we haven't heard about in ages. You're making a baseless assumption.
It doesn't follow that, just because the pay leagues haven't been mentioned, there aren't people working on them and they aren't going to happen. We do after all, have the release in a few weeks, so I'd imagine all resources are allocated to that. However, the pay leagues could be part of that.
I'm not saying they aren't going to happen, but there's been no indication of them coming in the near future.
"
Kellog wrote:
"
Novalisk wrote:
No, you can't simply copy any build. The most powerful and popular builds have more expensive items, which serves as a balancing feature. If you want to get the most powerful build, you have to pay a lot more, which means the profit margins between build with X effectiveness and build with 0.8X effectiveness favor 0.8X short term and favor X long term. Balance.
Without trading, you can just go for the most efficient build from the get-go because the weaker ones aren't any cheaper. Self-found encourages rolling the best build no matter what as far as efficiency is concerned.
Regardless of cost or time required to accumulate the necessary currency to finish a build, it's still feasible for anyone to accomplish with trading enabled. With regard to what you consider balance, this can be equated to found/crafted in SFL.
Both with and without self-found, builds can be "finished". That's not a part of my argument. My point is that in self-found, the best builds don't become harder to obtain over time, so people will just get the best builds. In regular leagues, best builds become increasingly expensive, making other builds viable in the process.
"
Kellog wrote:
"
Novalisk wrote:
I'll re-iterate my point as it seems you missed it.
The real reason you are encouraged to trade exalted orbs away instead of using them, is because other players have the gear you want. Those other players have that gear because their playstyle is the most efficient. Most efficient currently is also extremely boring (tradespam, forum maintenance, farming docks), and the efficiency difference between someone who gets MF and invests time into trading and someone who doesn't is huge. This can be fixed, this should be fixed, and this will allow more people to use top orbs without feeling bad about it.
I understood your point perfectly, thank you. Regardless, stacking MF makes some aspects of the game easier, particularly for those who trade. For self-found players increased MF, more often than not, only provides more vendor trash.
Whilst I agree MF needs adjustment, making trade easier will only encourage people to make more use of it, not to simply replace it with crafting. The only way for that balance to change is via considerable reduction in RNG.
MF makes your play-time significantly more efficient. The difference in efficiency between a person who doesn't have MF and a person who does is huge. Same goes for trading. The difference between being able to sell your items and not selling your items is also huge.
If MF becomes non-mandatory, and trading becomes a lot easier (with item flipping still being difficult), then there will be a lot less people who won't have to sell their exalted orbs to make progress, as they could sell their "trash" instead.
Sitting in trade chat for hours looking for arbitrage opportunities to fund gear upgrades is harder (and takes more skill) than chaos spamming and alt-regal spamming in a hypothetical SFL with WAY MOAR ORBS than currently available.
The whole idea that your equating sitting in trade chat as playing the actual game is the problem. It takes skill? wow....
Way more orbs? In a self found league you only work with the orbs you got. There is no WTB 70 fusings for my 1 exalt which goes on constantly in the current leagues. Trading is the real EZ mode.
Bashing the hypothetical drop rate is silly since it doesn't exist yet. No one knows what the drop rate would be like.
My point is that in self-found, the best builds don't become harder to obtain over time, so people will just get the best builds.
Novalisk
You forgot that people who want this league just want to have fun playing the game. They will not use all the same build, and I can guarantee this 100%
i like this game. i mean have you seen how powerful is the barbarian
My point is that in self-found, the best builds don't become harder to obtain over time, so people will just get the best builds.
Novalisk
You forgot that people who want this league just want to have fun playing the game. They will not use all the same build, and I can guarantee this 100%
Oh, not everyone will get the best build. But people who care about efficiency will have a lot more incentive to play cookie cutter builds instead of exploring niche builds.
Everyone wants to have fun, not just self-found players. We are playing a game, remember?
That's what you guys keep forgetting when saying "trade is part of the game" (guess what, it is not), "SFL is shit no fun" (yes people actually said this) and other things.
People who care about efficiency are not the same ones who want this league. The guys (at least like me), just want to have fun playing the game. Right now, this game is not fun for me, but it could be ten times better if something like this would be implemented.
i like this game. i mean have you seen how powerful is the barbarian
