General Discussion - Self-Found (League) [Thread outdated!] - Forum

" TheAnuhart wrote: " impotentwinnebago wrote: Ok, but is that really a solution? What do players use for trade if that were to happen? Everything would be strictly item for item? I don't see that working out very well at all. I see that working out pretty well as a system meant to not be gold. Much better than the current attempt. I don't know, it could promote heavy use of 3rd party currency systems. I would rather have GGG handle it in-house in an intelligent way. I love the crafting and it's clever connection to the currency. However there should be found ways to promote it as crafting material again, I agree. Edit: From another Thread: " darkcoug wrote: " CharanJaydemyr wrote: The unfortunate truth is, when GGG said 'all content, 100% free' they locked themselves out of the sort of money-machine you're discussing. They sell tabs. Why not sell "self-found tabs" (either account bound or character bound)? Once you have that done, all you need to do is apply a SELF-FOUND flag to any character created that way. Any character with this flag can not trade, cannot group with non-self-found players, cannot drop items outside of town, may only create permanent drop allocation parties, may only access the purchased self-found tabs, and has an inherent IIQ/IIR buff. I believe that would cover Self-Found characters that many people are clamoring for without creating much extra work for GGG or filling their data servers (well, it might, but the tabs would pay for them). Last edited by Nightmare90#4217 on Sep 5, 2013, 5:25:16 PM	Posted by Nightmare90#4217 on Sep 5, 2013, 4:16:16 PM Quote this Post
" Qarl wrote: I can give my current thoughts on self found. In the existing leagues, there is nothing stopping anyone from playing self-found, and we know many of our players do. We also have players that only engage rarely with other players, trading and partying occasionally. So, as you can play self found in an existing league, I doubt we need to separate out the leagues. The question then is, are there progression problems with self found. I think there are two parts to this: Can you play through self found? Currently there are issues with this, especially around the 40s. One of the main problems here is the availability of 4-linked items. Gear progression gets hard here, as replacement gear requires both beating existing gear in stats, and in skill support. This isn't usually an issue earlier, as you aren't needing full skill sets, and can skimp on stats and still progress quickly. If we are going to make changes, it will likely be on the ability to make or the availability of 4 linked items. The second issue is, what is the player expectation of self-found play. In general the main issue comes when players look to the top of ladders and to streamers to direct what their play experience would be like. This gives players a very distorted view of what they should be able to achieve. In general these players are pushing every advantage they can from trade, long play, group play. Often, when I get told - "everyone is doing X", and I have a look, there are often only a handful of people doing, its just often these are the most visible. An example of this is 6-link Shavronne's. If I look at over level 90 characters, in all leagues, played in the last month, well under 50 players have Shavronne's Wrappings equipped. And if I look at the stats, if you want to die, wear a Shavronne's. We will not be making a league to make it possible to replicate the play of these players. 1) We don't think its needed. 2) From past experience, if we make accommodations to make it possible to replicate these players, these players will still beat you. If we made a self found league with competitive advantages but solo play, you'll see the same players on top of those leagues, and we'll get a new set of complaints from people who want to replicate the achievements without the same investment. One problem is that you simply cannot plan a build around any items. Right now, for example, I can plan a facebreaker build. If I am playing self-found, however, I simply cannot do that. The chance of me finding a facebreaker is very little. Furthermore, if you play self-found, your items are just going to be terrible compared to people who trade. Crafting is just not as efficient as trading. And even if you craft, the ability to trade for orbs with other orbs is almost necessary. Finally, solo is just not good as partying. Some builds are almost impossible to solo level at certain points. Last edited by Quantifier#6676 on Sep 5, 2013, 8:59:24 PM	Posted by Quantifier#6676 on Sep 5, 2013, 8:58:14 PM Quote this Post
I myself am a self found player, not that i want to, but it's just the way i play it, i like to go solo and am way tooo lazy to trade (tho i do when i cant find something fits me or need an upgrade) For me and my OWN way to think, i'm just fine with any of the leagues to play as self-found, i don't think its really necesary to have a self found league only, THO i think it might be interesting, but the thing sometimes is compete, i like to compete whenever i feels i am up to, or when i finish my self-found quest, like ok i finished that step, now im going to focus on doing this and doing it faster. THO i have to admit i am more a self found because of my situation, been a father, working and keeping a family up every day gets your time short, i have only a little of time to play (maby on weekends i have the whole day to focus) I think it's really nice to have choises, and leagues are something really cool and i think its a good point that this game has that others don't or just ignore. all in all, i love PofE :) Last edited by herico33#7495 on Sep 5, 2013, 10:02:21 PM	Posted by herico33#7495 on Sep 5, 2013, 9:55:49 PM Quote this Post
" TheAnuhart wrote: " impotentwinnebago wrote: Ok, but is that really a solution? What do players use for trade if that were to happen? Everything would be strictly item for item? I don't see that working out very well at all. I see that working out pretty well as a system meant to not be gold. Much better than the current attempt. But is it a realistic solution? We have gold in this game, it comes in different shapes and sizes, and even fits into a slot machine called crafting. Won't dispute that "no-gold" in PoE failed. However, given that the very core of the game is built on this foundation, how likely is it that it will ever be changed? Certain individuals have suggested that a SFL would destroy the economy or at least negatively affect a large section of the player base (traders) by splitting the community. Wouldn't making crafting orbs account-bound instantly nuke the wealth of every trading player in the game? How is that the realistic, non-destructive option, even if I agree that it might be the best one? Why would GGG entertain the notion for even a microsecond? I normally try to avoid analogies, but the perfect solution to war is for people to simply put down their weapons and walk away from them. I'll venture into the realm of hyperbole, and suggest it's as likely to happen as bound Orbs in PoE. Last edited by DijiGo#2281 on Sep 5, 2013, 10:35:38 PM	Posted by DijiGo#2281 on Sep 5, 2013, 10:28:56 PM Quote this Post
" snapple99 wrote: I don't see it that way. In point of fact any reasonable discussion of game balance must encompass the fact that different players have different goals and that is something Scrotie (and quite a few others) don't seem to be able to wrap their heads around. That's not been my personal experience in my exchanges with him. I will grant, however, that my experiences may not necessarily reflect those that others have. " So that turns their interesting points into "I'm right and you're an idiot"... which is frankly not all that interesting. Scrotie's answer to everything is, "Well, if you would just value the things I do and seek entertainment the way I do then you wouldn't have this problem." Seriously? I find little value in that. Here I have to directly disagree with you. Take Scrotie's opposition posts to this very suggestion and compare them to the "Damn scrubs just want everything handed to them, GO BACK TO D3 NUBZ" crap that gets injected all too often into this type of discussion. At least Scrotie addresses the issue being discussed here. Does he do so in a head-strong, and borderline arrogant way? Perhaps, but no more so than many of the rest of us. I don't think conviction is a bad thing unless it is accompanied by a steadfast unwillingness to be consider a counter argument on it's merits rather than summarily dismissing it because it's not in line with your own thinking. My individual experience with Scrotie has shown him to be willing to consider opposing views even if he isn't persuaded.	Posted by Thaelyn#0781 on Sep 5, 2013, 11:59:18 PM Quote this Post
" DijiGo wrote: I realise that you no longer support SFL, but when you did write (numerous times) in support of it in the big thread, your "themes" were about choices, alternatives, benefits for both camps/playstyles, etc. Your language now is beginning to sound like you-know-who, and I'm more than a little surprised. Yes, those were common themes in my supporting posts. And they are ones that I still endorse for self found play. I also spoke, when I announced that I no longer supported a separate league, of unintended consequence. I honestly believe that the point Scrotie was making in that thread (that the move from trading leagues to SFL would encompass far more than just those who are asking for SFL), call it doom saying if you wish, was a valid concern given what has been asked for. It's not my support of improving self found play that's changed, it's the form the improvements to self found take that give me pause. I don't pretend to know absolutely what would happen to the trading leagues if GGG gave us what the majority of supporters in the two primary SFL threads have asked for (sorry, my crystal ball is in the shop). As I said in the other thread, I just consider the risk too great for my liking and, as such, can no longer support the request in good conscience. Through the process of coming to the decision to reverse my support of SFL I had to ask myself what the root causes of my issues were. In doing so I realized that a separate league does nothing to solve those issues with the game. Forgive the, admittedly, hyperbolic example, but I see it akin to trying to solve the melee/ranged disparity by making a league with no ranged skills. It's running away from the problem rather than addressing it. Last edited by Thaelyn#0781 on Sep 6, 2013, 12:13:11 AM	Posted by Thaelyn#0781 on Sep 6, 2013, 12:11:31 AM Quote this Post
" DijiGo wrote: But is it a realistic solution? We have gold in this game, it comes in different shapes and sizes, and even fits into a slot machine called crafting. Won't dispute that "no-gold" in PoE failed. However, given that the very core of the game is built on this foundation, how likely is it that it will ever be changed? Certain individuals have suggested that a SFL would destroy the economy or at least negatively affect a large section of the player base (traders) by splitting the community. Wouldn't making crafting orbs account-bound instantly nuke the wealth of every trading player in the game? How is that the realistic, non-destructive option, even if I agree that it might be the best one? Why would GGG entertain the notion for even a microsecond? I normally try to avoid analogies, but the perfect solution to war is for people to simply put down their weapons and walk away from them. I'll venture into the realm of hyperbole, and suggest it's as likely to happen as bound Orbs in PoE. I do agree that it's highly unlikely, but so is getting a 6L and we still push for that, don't we? ;) Honestly, though, while I don't think any of the changes I think are needed have a snowball's chance in hell of actually happening, I'm still going to put them out there. Release is probably the last opportunity we'll have to see any hope for something so drastic. It would require doing a release wipe, which I know they said they wouldn't do. As a general rule I don't like character wipes, but I'd support one to see this change, as I feel it is needed that badly.	Posted by Thaelyn#0781 on Sep 6, 2013, 12:16:57 AM Quote this Post
" Thaelyn wrote: It would require doing a release wipe, which I know they said they wouldn't do. Which is the reason that I think that the creation of a new, seperate league is the only viable solution at this stage in the game. I can't see any way to make changes to the existing leagues that would be impactful enough to fix the problems without doing a wipe, and that just can't happen.	Posted by impotentwinnebago#4037 on Sep 6, 2013, 1:43:19 AM Quote this Post
" Qarl wrote: I thought I'd also note, when I see part of the problem is a perception that people feel they need what the most time invested players have, I am not saying "you are all just entitled". I am saying, this is an actual problem we have, and we want to find out why we have this signalling issue. Chase items, and godly gear and perfect mods are excellent things for keeping those players interested in the game, and giving them something to do. But we also want to have other players happy to continue for better gear without feeling like they are missing out at some core level. And while we want a solution that works for players, we don't want to, say, add 5 hours of play to a player who was only going to play for 20 hours, in exchange for all of our 1000+ hour players, then it is not a very good solution for us. I like your standpoint here. There is already a lot of suggestions here and out there in the forums. My personal view is that when I play my 1-3 hours per day and mostly solo I just cannot get the gear with good enough def/off stats AND the IIQ/IIR needed to find <-that kind of items. And I don't get currency fast enough to feel that it is rewarding to farm orbs for trading. And sure I will get there some time but it takes to long time and that is not fun. I would like to start up more builds and try out the skill tree even more. Thanks for reading and I cross my fingers that you come of with some kind of great idea to solve this "issue", so I can continue play this awesome game much longer ;-) IGN: Hydralin	Posted by Peacebringer#0391 on Sep 6, 2013, 2:31:55 AM Quote this Post
I remember, in my D2 days, I farmed the shit out of Mephiste & Co. (Nightmare) with my extra MF Gear Set before going to hell. Chris even said that Merciless is no linea progresseion and that you may have to farm along the way. So as far as I see it, hitting a wall along the way is normal and having extra MF gear to go farming from time to time is normal too. When did it happen that needing MF to get the good loot was a bad thing? What I want to say is: You play SF and hit a wall in Cruel/Merciless? That's totally normal. Just put on some MF gear and farm for a while. “Demons run when a good man goes to war"	Posted by Sneakypaw#3052 on Sep 6, 2013, 4:18:25 AM Quote this Post