Self-Found (League) [Thread outdated!]

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Regarding what should be:

Spoiler

I believe that cooperative play actually should be rewarded more than solo play — as even compensation players for the hassles of dealing with uncooperative people when runs into them, and as a bonus for successfully arranging in-game relationships with other players which are functional and effective. But that doesn't mean I think players should feel forced into doing so. The ideal level of "social bonus" is at the level where the average player is neutral about seeking out "blind date" relationships with normal players, for grouping with friends, and against grouping with assholes. This means balancing the "social" bonuses against the level of frustration of dealing with the average (totally random) player, and goes for both partying together and trading.

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Regarding what is:

Spoiler

I believe the general tone of both this thread and the original SFL thread in Suggestions greatly exaggerates the extent of the problem; it's not like the game is utterly unplayable in a self-found mode, and are scapegoating all of their "solo self-found" issues onto trading when other issues are also contributing to their despair: IIQ/IIR, partying bonus, trying to go melee or some similar difficult-to-gear build, or simply strategic errors on their part. There's way too strong of a tendency in this thread to act like trading is the single biggest problem in this game, when it's not even really top 5 (desync, map affixes/enjoyability, IIQ/IIR, totems/minions, and party bonuses/mapcost, in that order). But that doesn't mean I think there's no problem whatsoever, and it still might rank top 10, which means it definitely merits discussion. I agree that the ways which items improve through natural, self-found-style farming and crafting is weak enough that it pushes players towards the social interaction of trading, even when it's with assholes, so it does fail the basic litmus test.

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Regarding how to get to what should be: I believe that problems with the game should be fixed. What I don't believe is that problems with the game should be fixed for some, who choose to elect one option, while those who choose another option are stuck with the same old broken system.

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If players want to add challenges, that's fine; and for that separate leagues are a good idea. But Standard League should, true to its name, set the standard: nothing in any other league should be "easier" than Standard, only harder and at the option of the players choosing it.

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So I guess I get cast as the boogieman. Thing is, I'm really not.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

Spoiler

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I believe that cooperative play actually should be rewarded more than solo play — as even compensation players for the hassles of dealing with uncooperative people when runs into them, and as a bonus for successfully arranging in-game relationships with other players which are functional and effective. But that doesn't mean I think players should feel forced into doing so. The ideal level of "social bonus" is at the level where the average player is neutral about seeking out "blind date" relationships with normal players, for grouping with friends, and against grouping with assholes. This means balancing the "social" bonuses against the level of frustration of dealing with the average (totally random) player, and goes for both partying together and trading.

I've had this debate in many games of different genres over several years. And you kinda touched on the problems that 'extra reward' and 'incentives' produce, personally I don't agree that they should exist in the slightest.

We have people who like to solo exclusively.
We have people who like to group exclusively.
We have people who like to do both, to varying ratios.

What we hear, as you say in this quote, is that people should be rewarded/compensated for the extra organisation, cooperation and hassle. We also hear that it promotes socialising, rewards for socialising and makes for a happier, more intertwined, social community. I have problems here, here's why.

In a scenario where there are no extras, those who want to group do so when they want, those who don't, don't. People group with friends or with people who want to group because they like to group.

Once rewards and incentives are introduced;

1) A closed network of friends who always play together are rewarded for doing so, they would do so any way, they are playing how they always would, we should note, also, that while being social among themselves, they are often completely segregated from the rest of the community and in fact, as seen in many guilds, will outright deny access to outsiders.

2) People who have no intention of ever grouping will still not group and are not rewarded, this is effectively a penalty.

3) People who would rather solo, but could be tempted with incentives, may group. We are rewarding these people for playing such a way that they would rather not.

4) People who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves and as much fat loot as they can get, will group no matter what their personal preference is and without a care for anyone else who they group with.

5) People who would rather group but don't have a closed party of friends will group, as they would any way, being social with like minded people, they are rewarded for doing what they would any way.

Group 1 are being rewarded for doing as they would, any way and are closed off from the community.

Group 2 are penalised.

Group 3 are doing what they would rather not.

Group 4 are just out for themselves and are the 'uncooperative people' mentioned in the quote. And hey, look, they now get rewarded for being douches.

Group 5 are being rewarded for doing what they would any way and compensated for putting up with the people that they now need to put up with much more because the compensation/incentive system is in place to start with.

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Kellog wrote:

The simple fact is, trading makes this game easy. Any league with trading enabled is by definition easier than self-found, even if that league were to have some sort of enhanced crafting mechanic.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

you're just trying to get a sandbox where your playstyle is buffed.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

...and to at least try doing some stuff on Trade Chat, and I mean legitimate tries here.

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You don't seem to get it. A new league should not be a balance thing, ever. I don't care if the consensus of 99.9% of players is that a new league is harder... if there is anything that is even slightly easier about it, it is wrong, because new leagues aren't about balance, they're about challenge. Fourist wants to see how hard it would be; you're just trying to get a sandbox where your playstyle is buffed.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I don't care if the consensus of 99.9% of players is ...

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MierenEronaile wrote:

Sorry for a not particularly detailed reply to your well thought out ones, but why exactly is it that all new leagues should only exist for a challenge instead of to balance or make the game more enjoyable for a certain type of player?

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Kellog wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

...and to at least try doing some stuff on Trade Chat, and I mean legitimate tries here.

Just how difficult is it for you to understand? I don't want to trade with anyone ever! Feel free to trade all day log if you wish, just stop trying to get everyone to play the way you'd like them to.

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DijiGo wrote:

It has nothing to do with logic anymore

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DijiGo wrote:

If you aren't a Scrote's Hardcore Bro (tm) your views mean jack.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Logic and emotion are not mutually exclusive.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

** If I really believed people's views didn't matter, I wouldn't even both posting. I have no problem with Fourist; explain that.