Self-Found (League) [Thread outdated!]

I think Scrotie is more against using the SLF to try and fix other problems.

He wants those problems fixed, and is worried that an SFL would be used as a fake fix for those problems.

Many issues will never completely go away when the game is balanced around trading. They can make improvements but it will always be there.

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Jaknet wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I'm not saying I'm perfect; maybe my ideas are wrong. But at least I'm not walking into obvious traps which anyone familiar with D3's history knows will not work.

I know you hate with a passion the idea of an SFL, but you mention D3 and the last news from D3 is that they have realised that their model of buying gear through trading and auction house is not what an ARGP is about and that they are going back to the original concept of finding items by killing mobs and looting what drops. Not by spending ages trading.

One of their reasons was they have noticed that players spent more time trading than they did actually playing the game and that is not what they want to see

I've got a question for you. Let's say you're looking at two ugly people; I'm not going to be gender specific, just whatever you're normally sexually attracted to, except not as much as usual in this case, because they're ugly. Then, you take the slightly prettier one away. Does this make the other one any less ugly?

No, it doesn't.

Removing the Auction Houses from Diablo 3 isn't going to change all that much on its own. Yes, searchable buyouts are a detestable thing, and to that I joyfully say good riddance. But the only thing that made playing the Auction Houses so appealing to so many, so much of a solid preference, was the fact that Diablo 3 is a truly shitty ARPG. Its itemization is horrible, its attempts at build diversity are pathetic, and it doesn't really have an endgame because, just like a typical Activision title, may have had nice graphics (sort of) and bells and whistles, but its worn out all its novelty long before you get a chance to finish Inferno. But more than anything, its itemization is truly horrible. When confronted with the choice between continuing to actually play Diablo 3 the ARPG or take their spoils thus far and use them to play Diablo 3 the Market Simulator instead, thousands upon thousands chose, voluntarily, wilfully, to play the Market Simulator. That does not say good things about the quality of the actual ARPG.

Getting rid of the Auction Houses isn't the magic fix for all of Diablo 3's ills. Essentially, it will feel a hell of a lot like playing Diablo 3 used to feel, if for some reason you had imposed the masochistic restriction upon yourself to never use the Auction House and instead rely solely on self-found progression to grind your way through the game. If not properly planned for, it actually could make the game even worse. If the Market Simulator was in fact the better, more enjoyable game, you could make the argument that Blizzard is removing the good less shitty half of D3... and keeping the shittier.

So if what concerns you is how many people play the markets in Path of Exile, and how people voluntarily, wilfully choose the market game over the ARPG game, you shouldn't be looking at it as some monopolistic tycoon would, simply trying to eliminate all the competition for the ARPG's attention. Instead, you should be looking at what that kind of behavior says about the ARPG part of the game itself, because apparently the taste test results are back, and it's the market game which has the people's approval. If you think it's the end consumer who benefits from having the best-tasting result eliminated from the market, while the losing result remains unchanged and just as fucked-up as it used to be... then you really don't have your priorities straight.

The right course from here isn't nerfing trading. It's buffing the non-trading elements of the game.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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morbo wrote:

Creating a Self-found league would not require more work than creating Anarchy or Onslaught.

While I actually agree with the "Anarchy" part of that, I disagree with the "Onslaught." Creating several Rogue Exiles and testing against them to ensure that they were neither too weak nor too strong (for the most part) wasn't something that happened instantly; it required some behind-the-scenes, honest-to-god playtesting, not just in particular areas but in all areas where Rogues could spawn, across all difficulties. And playtesting takes time. (Onslaught, on the other hand, was a watered-down version of a common race mod, a throw-away option.)

Any sort of "increased drop rate" rebalance would almost definitely require effort similar to Anarchy's testing. The problem is not that you equate this type of change to Anarchy, but that you brush it off as easy and costless, as if getting a small group of testers to run through content for days isn't something that costs a game studio money. Creating Anarchy costed money. Creating Domination and Nemesis costed money. Creating Leagues that actually have significant balance changes costs money.

Is it possible to create new leagues? Of course it is. But it has a price tag. And most importantly, SFL wouldn't solve the real problem anyway. Do you really believe that increasing drop rates is somehow going to magically fix low-level crafting, or that it's going to make it so gear progression isn't as much of a grind? Did you learn nothing when Jay Wilson famously said "double it" (referring to unique drop rates)... and absolutely no good came of it? You guys are barking up the wrong tree when it comes to a solution for your ills.

Want to read a serious suggestion on how to fix low-level crafting? Read this. Want to read a serious discussion on how to make progression feel like less of a grind? Read this. And while you're at it, check out the second link for specifically why increasing drop rates doesn't solve the problems of a grindy progression. I'm not saying I'm perfect; maybe my ideas are wrong. But at least I'm not walking into obvious traps which anyone familiar with D3's history knows will not work.

Um, no, it doesn't cost money.
Creating a new league is as simple as creating a new table in a database. For a self-found league, the only thing they'd have to do is create a new league and disable trading. Really not that difficult.

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casval776 wrote:

Spoiler

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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morbo wrote:

Creating a Self-found league would not require more work than creating Anarchy or Onslaught.

While I actually agree with the "Anarchy" part of that, I disagree with the "Onslaught." Creating several Rogue Exiles and testing against them to ensure that they were neither too weak nor too strong (for the most part) wasn't something that happened instantly; it required some behind-the-scenes, honest-to-god playtesting, not just in particular areas but in all areas where Rogues could spawn, across all difficulties. And playtesting takes time. (Onslaught, on the other hand, was a watered-down version of a common race mod, a throw-away option.)

Any sort of "increased drop rate" rebalance would almost definitely require effort similar to Anarchy's testing. The problem is not that you equate this type of change to Anarchy, but that you brush it off as easy and costless, as if getting a small group of testers to run through content for days isn't something that costs a game studio money. Creating Anarchy costed money. Creating Domination and Nemesis costed money. Creating Leagues that actually have significant balance changes costs money.

Is it possible to create new leagues? Of course it is. But it has a price tag. And most importantly, SFL wouldn't solve the real problem anyway. Do you really believe that increasing drop rates is somehow going to magically fix low-level crafting, or that it's going to make it so gear progression isn't as much of a grind? Did you learn nothing when Jay Wilson famously said "double it" (referring to unique drop rates)... and absolutely no good came of it? You guys are barking up the wrong tree when it comes to a solution for your ills.

Want to read a serious suggestion on how to fix low-level crafting? Read this. Want to read a serious discussion on how to make progression feel like less of a grind? Read this. And while you're at it, check out the second link for specifically why increasing drop rates doesn't solve the problems of a grindy progression. I'm not saying I'm perfect; maybe my ideas are wrong. But at least I'm not walking into obvious traps which anyone familiar with D3's history knows will not work.

Um, no, it doesn't cost money.
Creating a new league is as simple as creating a new table in a database. For a self-found league, the only thing they'd have to do is create a new league and disable trading. Really not that difficult.

Read more; morbo was specifically advocating increased drop rates.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Getting rid of the Auction Houses isn't the magic fix for all of Diablo 3's ills. Essentially, it will feel a hell of a lot like playing Diablo 3 used to feel, if for some reason you had imposed the masochistic restriction upon yourself to never use the Auction House and instead rely solely on self-found progression to grind your way through the game. If not properly planned for, it actually could make the game even worse. If the Market Simulator was in fact the better, more enjoyable game, you could make the argument that Blizzard is removing the good less shitty half of D3... and keeping the shittier.

No.. Because it's not JUST getting rid of the auction house, they are changing the entire drop rate to reflect the fact that players are expected to get their loot from mobs not from trading.

The D3 devs said that it's not a case of the trading was better, it was a case of trading was required/essential to get any distance in the game, which they feel is completely the wrong approach for an ARGP which is about finding your gear by killing mobs

I really cannot understand why any mention of playing self found immediate has you claiming it will make any argp mentioned worse.

As for which side of the game is "shittier" to use your words, I guess it depends on whether you enjoy playing a hack n' slash to get loot, or you prefer playing an economic trading simulator to get loot.

Personally I prefer to kill mobs, find loot, not play trading simulators, but I'm more than well aware that you disagree totally and consider trading to get loot the best thing ever going and SFL must never happen in PoE, ever in any circumstances.

I know that you will never change your mind and will keep fighting any suggestion for a SFL because it will destroy PoE.

I think we are just going to keep going in circles with this.

I think the only thing we can agree on is that you disagree with my views and I disagree with your views.


Edit...

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Read more; morbo was specifically advocating increased drop rates.

GGG have already got at least one table for increased drop rates made and working. The descent races were all self found, with modified (increased) drop rates to compensate for the fact of no trading

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Read more; morbo was specifically advocating increased drop rates.

No I wasnt, specifically. Though tweaking drop-rates would be part of balancing a SFL. Because currently everything is balanced around trading.

I was just replying to the notion that creating a SFL woud require "reinventing the whole game" and would be "very expensive". Which isnt true, as GGG already has all the tools in place to create new leagues with specific rulesets. SFL would not require more work than "ladder reset" leagues do.

The reasons for not doing a SFL are other than technical / financial

Well, one option could be to make one of the 4-months leagues self found at some point in the future. I bet they have many ideas for coming leagues, and self found just might be one of them.

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Jaknet wrote:

No.. Because it's not JUST getting rid of the auction house, they are changing the entire drop rate to reflect the fact that players are expected to get their loot from mobs not from trading.

This doesn't matter one bit, one way or the other. What matters is changing the itemization system so that figuring out which helm is better is actually a choice, and not an automatic, easy-as-fuck appraisal.

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Jaknet wrote:

As for which side of the game is "shittier" to use your words, I guess it depends on whether you enjoy playing a hack n' slash to get loot, or you prefer playing an economic trading simulator to get loot.

Personally I prefer to kill mobs, find loot, not play trading simulators, but I'm more than well aware that you disagree totally and consider trading to get loot the best thing ever going and SFL must never happen in PoE, ever in any circumstances.

It's not about which I prefer, or which you say you prefer, it's about what people prefer. The masses. You give millions of players a choice — play actual ARPG, or play market simulator — and they play market simulator. Now, of course, if you ask them they're going to say they prefer to play an ARPG, because they're here to slay monsters, because that's what sounds good. But when we look at what people actually do — not say, do — we know that a bunch of them are fucking liars, because they choose market simulator. It's the same as when you do surveys asking people what type of coffee they drink: they all say they like a nice, dark roast (and black, too), but when you look at what people actually buy with actual dollars, they go for a mild breakfast-blend crap with cream and sugar. (And this is not speculation on my part.)

Now I'm not saying that these people don't prefer the ARPG genre in general over the market simulator genre in general. Actually, it wouldn't make sense otherwise; why buy a game named Diablo if one didn't? But when given the choice between playing that particular ARPG versus playing that particular market simulator, well, the people have spoken.

Nobody ever held a gun to anyone's head in Diablo 3 and forced them to use the Auction House — they chose to. The thing that no one wants to really wrap their heads around is: why? Most of the time when you hear explanations, those explanations explain how D3 forced its users to do this and that, but the whole point is that it wasn't force, it was choice. It was an optional option that pretty much everyone opted to opt. The real problem was that they liked the market simulator better, and that something is tremendously fucking wrong when one likes the auction simulator better. So tremendously wrong, in fact, that it's a reality one doesn't want to confront, bound to be denied and repressed.

And so it is, also, with PoE. No one is forcing you to trade; the problem is that you want to, you really, really want to, and you know there's something tremendously fucking wrong with that, because you don't like market simulators in general, you like ARPGs in general, so you should want to play the ARPG and not the trading simulator, right? Right?

Right. But the problem lies not in the market simulator.

Not sure if any of these have been suggested but here we go:

- Self found should not be a separate league but a part of any league

- Trading should be allowed

- Items should have a field that shows the name of whoever found the item

- If the item is equipped by the same person all the stats on the item should get a bonus, say 10% (bonus should be visible on the item stat sheet)

- If the item is traded the name will go blank and the stat bonuses will disappear

- For every level gained using only self found items all item stats get a 0.25% bonus to stats (max bonus 25% at level 100), if at any time a non self found item is equipped the bonus disappears forever

- Whenever a self found orb is used on a self found item there is a higher percent chance of getting a better result (only for orbs where this makes sense like fusing or orbs that reroll values)