Self-Found (League) [Thread outdated!]

Hi

+1 SFL

Silly ScrotieMCB, Captain of the wall of text, do you think I wasn't aware of what Qarl wrote? Although it is nice that you took the time to refresh what they wrote. For a person that mentioned that they were done writing on this post you sure renege a lot. Your ideas are aright but you have clearly shown time and again your incapability at coming up with good ideas when it comes to SFL so stick at whatever posts your good at and do what you have previously written in regards to SFL postings.

cheers

Am I allowed to say that I found Qarl's posts very one sided and almost hostile to the issues self found players have?

"

Qarl wrote:

I can give my current thoughts on self found.

In the existing leagues, there is nothing stopping anyone from playing self-found, and we know many of our players do. We also have players that only engage rarely with other players, trading and partying occasionally.

So, as you can play self found in an existing league, I doubt we need to separate out the leagues.

Hardcore players could have simply stopped playing a character when it died in normal league and started a new one..... That didn't stop you guys from giving them a separate league though that enforced HC rules. Why should the fact that we "can" play self found in normal stop you from giving us a self found league that enforces a self-found ruleset like you gave HC players their own league?

"

Qarl wrote:

The question then is, are there progression problems with self found. I think there are two parts to this:

Can you play through self found? Currently there are issues with this, especially around the 40s. One of the main problems here is the availability of 4-linked items. Gear progression gets hard here, as replacement gear requires both beating existing gear in stats, and in skill support. This isn't usually an issue earlier, as you aren't needing full skill sets, and can skimp on stats and still progress quickly.

If we are going to make changes, it will likely be on the ability to make or the availability of 4 linked items.

I don't have trouble getting to 60 self-found. My issue is that the amount of usable loot at higher levels seems to be very very sparse.

"

Qarl wrote:

The second issue is, what is the player expectation of self-found play. In general the main issue comes when players look to the top of ladders and to streamers to direct what their play experience would be like. This gives players a very distorted view of what they should be able to achieve. In general these players are pushing every advantage they can from trade, long play, group play.

Often, when I get told - "everyone is doing X", and I have a look, there are often only a handful of people doing, its just often these are the most visible. An example of this is 6-link Shavronne's. If I look at over level 90 characters, in all leagues, played in the last month, well under 50 players have Shavronne's Wrappings equipped. And if I look at the stats, if you want to die, wear a Shavronne's.

We will not be making a league to make it possible to replicate the play of these players. 1) We don't think its needed. 2) From past experience, if we make accommodations to make it possible to replicate these players, these players will still beat you. If we made a self found league with competitive advantages but solo play, you'll see the same players on top of those leagues, and we'll get a new set of complaints from people who want to replicate the achievements without the same investment.

"

Qarl wrote:

"

Cronk wrote:

When people say they would like a self-found league, it's not as a result of a desire to compete - quite the opposite in fact.

Well, from what I have read, that seems to be exactly what they say. They use terms like "You just can't compete."

I like how he simply dismisses what Cronk said. We don't want to compete with the Kripparians or the other people on the ladder. We want OUR experience of the game to be improved. When there is a way to trade any item with any other player, loot will HAVE to be sparser by design because fewer items go to waste.

"

Qarl wrote:

Largely, and I am very glad about this, our business model supports us making the best game we can.

We are planning to run the game long term, so we can't just increase player numbers at the expense of having lower churn. So, yes, we really do care about our players staying.

So we really do care about things that cause players to quit and not return. So this thread is interesting to me. For example seeing people report Act 2 Merciless as an issue, as its not really an area where we have identified as being a problem.

If you care about your players please realize that for some of us, trading in an arpg is an irreconcilable evil. It makes us view our resources and loot from the point of view of what are they worth to others, to treat drops as a commodity and some of us just don't enjoy that mentality but it is thrust on us nonetheless.

And self limitation is a lazy excuse for ignoring our concerns. Picture this scenario: what if we had complete control over drop rates? You might say that the players should exert self control and set their drop rate to whatever gave them the most enjoyment right? Well guess what: the majority of players would end up turning the dial so far that good loot was literally poured on them and eventually they would get bored with the game.

And so it is with self found league. You are telling us we should play normal and just exert self control but the same thing is happening here. We realize that if we save those chaos and buy the good piece of gear we will be better rewarded and we are getting bored with the game because the best way of getting the loot you want isn't by playing the game but instead by trading.

"

Qarl wrote:

"

Amiag wrote:

well for starter theres a 90-page thread in the suggestions forum where no one ever complains about being unable to top the ladder as self found (well as far as i can remember), so im not sure where you get that competition is the problem ? If anything people playing self found are not interested in competition cause self found is WAY slower especially once you get to act 3 merci and maps.

They don't talk about being at the top of the ladder, but they very specifically mention the play experience of those players, and their gear, and the parts of the game, and their effectiveness in those parts of the game.

I do appreciate you actually saying something in this post.

This is frustrating to no end. A very valid point is made about self found not being about competition for everyone and he just points the finger at a few straw men who want what the top players have. Who cares about a few jealousy posts? Some of us have REAL concerns which we have made very clear.

"

Qarl wrote:

Well, I really am interested in this wall. I have yet to get an idea of why it is an issue.

What precisely is the issue at this point? People do mention crafting a bit, so is it a linking issue, in which case the solution for the 40s area will also help here.

If it is a different issue, then what is it, and does it need a different solution.

Yes it does need a different solution: trading is incompatible with my ideal playstyle.
There is no reconcilable change that can be made that doesn't involve a league without trading.

"

Qarl wrote:

I thought I'd also note, when I see part of the problem is a perception that people feel they need what the most time invested players have, I am not saying "you are all just entitled". I am saying, this is an actual problem we have, and we want to find out why we have this signalling issue.

Chase items, and godly gear and perfect mods are excellent things for keeping those players interested in the game, and giving them something to do. But we also want to have other players happy to continue for better gear without feeling like they are missing out at some core level.

None of the vocal people in this thread that I've seen are concerned about having what "the most time invested players have." In fact if I did want that I'd be better off continuing to play standard rather than re-rolling in a fresh league where I had to start from scratch. I am making progress farming the currency I would need to buy items I want in standard.... but I hate this feeling that that's what I'm doing: farming currency to buy what I want rather than having it actually drop for me.

"

Qarl wrote:

And while we want a solution that works for players, we don't want to, say, add 5 hours of play to a player who was only going to play for 20 hours, in exchange for all of our 1000+ hour players, then it is not a very good solution for us.

Someone who had only played for 20 hours would not have enough experience to even understand the majority of what is being discussed here. The people asking for this are clearly people who have put some time into this game.

SFL is a joke lol just play HC like a real player

"

ggwp1 wrote:

SFL is a joke lol just play HC like a real player

HC has nothing to do with SFL. In fact a "real" player shouldn't need a party to carry him/her or buy items to be good.

SFL FTW

As much as I like playing with others. I really wouldn't mind a SF HC league just for the challenge. I would definitely play that.

"

silvershadows wrote:

Am I allowed to say that I found Qarl's posts very one sided and almost hostile to the issues self found players have?

Yes you can. I fully agree and what annoys me most is than other that one sided post, which is full of Quarl saying "I think what everyone in SFL wants is XYZ" only to have every point made rebutted by everyone here, and yet there is still no conversation from GGG on this matter.

Surely they can either discus this SFL concept honestly with us, or they can say "It's not happening... trade or leave"

Anything else just shows complete lack of interest in talking to players who aren't all "GGG is the best and can do nothing wrong"

"

ggwp1 wrote:

SFL is a joke lol just play HC like a real player

Considering that apart from your 2 posts in this thread every other post of yours is in the trade threads, desperately trying to get better gear. You are a perfect example that shows just how wonderful the drops from mobs are and how easy it is to progress without trading.

I guess you don't consider yourself a real player then either, as you have been playing in anarchy which is not the hardcore league, looking at all your posts in the anarchy trade shops desperate for better gear

"

silvershadows wrote:

If you care about your players please realize that for some of us, trading in an arpg is an irreconcilable evil. It makes us view our resources and loot from the point of view of what are they worth to others, to treat drops as a commodity and some of us just don't enjoy that mentality but it is thrust on us nonetheless.

What is disturbing, silver, is that this view, the original aRPG play style, is seen as so alien nowadays.

It really is sad.

"

AintCare wrote:

Spoiler

well played sir.. well played

Haha, thank you :)

As i looked back on my post the day after i even thought i made a threadkilla..

Happy to see it instead spawned a pic of a lovely OP magic card, and discussion continued as if nothing happened. ;)

Come to think of it, i'd like the Wall of Text to be able to block landwalkers as though they didnt have the line of text.

"

silvershadows wrote:

Hardcore players could have simply stopped playing a character when it died in normal league and started a new one..... That didn't stop you guys from giving them a separate league though that enforced HC rules. Why should the fact that we "can" play self found in normal stop you from giving us a self found league that enforces a self-found ruleset like you gave HC players their own league?

A thought occurred to me as I read this particular portion of your post, shadows. Right now a hardcore player in standard has nothing to prevent him from getting the maximum enjoyment from his preferred playstyle except his own lack of discipline. The same cannot be said for self found players. Self found players have the deck stacked against them by design. GGG has erected barriers to our play style and says "you can already do that". Hardcore players, on the other hand, face no such barriers yet GGG believes their play style worthy of special consideration.

Definitely an interesting thought, but not one that bodes well for any improvement to self found play. It suggests a dim view of the play style on the part of the developers, as can be seen by Qarl's posts.

If you want answers from Chris on SFL then signup for Raptr and like Porath's question. Currently at 35 likes.

The URL is here:

http://raptr.com/Chris_GGG/news/52534c6e77938e0e81/raptr-q-a-path-of-exile