Our view on map drop rates

I realize the topic has been discussed very thoroughly, but I wanted to add my two cents:

The maps are, as far as I know, the ONLY type of an item that is exempted from the normal mechanics of increased item quantity. I feel that any exception of this kind is inherently bad, especially if it is not presented clearly in the game. It harms the consistency of the game if there is a single item type, on which the normal rules of increased item quanity gear does not apply.

As to the actual effects of the recent changes, I think there are many players who take genuine pleasure in gradually increasing their MF (rarity and quantity of drops) and the developers have supported this desire with many uniques and overall possibilities of the stats on rares. Since the gear no longer influences the map drop rate, half the joy from collecting a MF gear is gone, because maps represent a very desirable item and it is for them that the players wear IIQ gear. I fully understand if the devs decide at some point that they don't want MF stats on gear at all, but this half-nerf is inconsistent and bad.

I also understand the goal that MF gear should not be a prerequisite for playing high-level contents. I think most players would agree. However, the current drop rate is very low and it cannot be sufficiently increased even by the best players, because it is very difficult to get beyond 80-100+% increased drop quantity even with alchemy and chaos orbs.

From the design point of view, I thought that the challenge of the end game should consist in confronting the player with very difficult mobs with additional obstacles (such as curses, temporal chains, incrased monster damage, etc.) I don't think that GETTING to these areas should be the main challenge of the end game.

TL;DR: I love the game, but I think the current restrictions on map drop rate are inconsistent, take away a lot of joy from building up MF they represent a definite step back from 0.9.11.

Start by saying thanks to Chris and team ggg for starting this thread, and giving the community a chance to provide some feeback on the endgame situation, I believe this measure will only help ggg optimize their product as its being built. In terms of foundation and structure this game rocks, but endgame always becomes an overwhelming priority for gg longevity.

I feel that the principle behind the map system is great, but it seems a bit out of balance atm, I dont really know what to think anymore with the droprate of maps other than it is heavily rng influenced, prior to this patch i was actually dipping in and out of 66-69 maps quite frequently(running 60-76quant), this patch i havent done as many maps but am clearly struggling to sustain anything above lvl 64, i would say ive only been able to produce a handful of maps 65+ out of roughly 75-90 maps since the latest patch. Maps were char quant dependant to start, and now they arent at all, but what if a % of your quant could still be used or "shared", that way it would work in scale with stackers and even the low quant user would still recieve a minor benefit so for ex. if you were allowed to contribute 20% of your own quant towards maps, if im rockin 100% than the map can recieve an additional 20%(just a suggestion), this may get the ball rolling on some better numbers on higher lvl maps or "progression" within endgame. Once you reach a certain level you really dont envision yourself below a 65 map given that the exp in a 65 map doesnt even amount to 1% for me atm, what can i say i like to play and i want to level :} but struggling to do so. My participation in maps depends on my stash showing me orbs, if i dont have orbs i cant do maps, but if i have maps i can do lots of orbs, i find myself trading now more than ever to support the cost of maps and customization, dont get me wrong i love trading, but its what im doing it for that kinda bothers me, i still do it cause i love this game..duh but there has to be some measure made to balance or account for a) the lack of higher lvl maps b) the cost incurred running maps.
Yeah there are lots of 60-63 but i cant subject myself to those shackled limitations for much longer, im eager to test the leveling capabilities within this game and obtain the real endgame,therefore i have to customize my map mods which has a vicious effect on my stash, there are a dozen or so high lvl characters in this same situation and inevidably when your thinking long term status this number becomes exponential as time goes by, i mean..lets face it its all about endgame, that is everyone's eventual home in a game like PoE.
I cant see endgame sustaining popularity if it remains this way, i know that A3 is on its way, so i wont be judging the entirety of endgame since it hasnt arrived yet, but if A3 is going to be an upscaled version of A2 than to me its fly-by and wont be considered endgame (i hope im wrong).

There has to be more for not just endgame but PVE endgame..without hopping on the bandwagon here honestly..the freerolling dungeon that elevates lvls as you clear areas is a really cool idea, one instance , id call it the "Eternal Depths", it gives any variable skilled player the option to test their own at your own risk, amongst other things of course that come with this great optional format of gameplay are perhaps achievement chests with high loot piles if reached at different increments within the lvls, with the everlasting rng orb drops within, more partied play, this would be a great addition to balance the removal of Chaos, which is a bit off topic i do apologize for that, last i checked this thread was about maps, but Chaos offered us a resource ground, and it was around for so long that so many people enjoyed it, and we were all aware of it being temporary and dreaded the day it was removed...but with the implementation of maps the readily available orbs are just not around as much anymore, prior to the first map patch release i had made 2 massive trades acquiring about 160 gcp total, i may be a bit of a customization whore since i have spent all that and probably double that up to this point (alch/scour/chaos/chisel mainly)
but this is my nature behind individual endgame involvement, and many others as well.

Keep in mind my opinions expressed are just suggestions and not demands, i am not venting or qqing, this is all done in the name of constructive criticism and should not be taken to heart.
Just breifly responding to the notes you posted
a) Ty for the chisel increase, we were in clear need of this.
b) i have done every mod with the exception of BM.
c) i agree that maps ultimately remain rng dominant.
d) im finding no less or more maps but mainly 60-63.
e) item drops are great, keep em comin.
f) i have not found a map above 67,since the map droprate was increased. (1x67)
g) im always running maps its all i do

I am disatisfied with my progression, doesnt mean im going to quit, im here till OB but i want to see this game evolve to its full potential, we need more endgame content, if endgame is solely maps we need a balancing act to give the players more oppurunities to utilize their potential skill level. At this point i will cut myself off before my 2cents turns into 10cents, this is definitely a topic i could go on forever about and would embrace doing so.

-Grits

How about introducing a currency item which increases the level of a map? This would provide additional liquidity in the map market and open up a better exchange between the beginning of the end game and those further along. GGG should know that any item with too high of a demand will inevitably create a black money market.

People are right to point out that leaving it up to a RNG to provide a suitable challenge is not a satisfying mechanic.

Seems like POE devs have a strong concern about endgame leveling speeds and have a desire that reaching lvl100 be extreme challenge and reward, but making it a huge timesink/grind is not the solution.

leveling should flatten at some point, perhaps ~lvl75 or 80 where a ratio holds the same, perhaps an avg map of same level gives 5% exp or so.

Instead the challenge should come in tiers and even perhaps begin to scale faster than player builds (such that lvl 85 on an 85 map isn't as hard as 90 on 90), there are numerous methods of accomplishing this -- one simple way would be to begin to remove information at higher levels -- not knowing what mods are on a map (needing to "explore" the map to find out).

Ultimately the designers ought to provide a fairly clear and straight forward method of progressing that isn't a complete grind. Of course their other job is to invent ever more nefarious methods to "challenge" (aka kill) players (with the one caveat that a death isn't viewed as completely arbitrary/left entirely to the RNG God, indeed the ideal for every high level death would be for players to blame themselves and curse their own mistakes).

My view from a design/systems perspective.

"

butcherspupil wrote:

Everything Grits said

-Grits

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Chris and the rest of the development team have done a fantastic job with the game so far, this is coming from a person who usually quits a game after a few weeks due to boredom or lack of content, but I have been playing this game for 6+ months or so now, so great job.

However, I am disappointed with the current map system that was introduced in the latest patch. The map drop rate has essentially dried up to a trickle, and because it is now all RNG based except for the quantity mod on the map, there seems to be a lot less maps in general.

Not to say maps are not dropping, they are, more so for some than others, but now it seems to be completely luck based, and I feel the the harder maps with high quantity aren't dropping nearly enough maps. Considering I have fairly terrible luck, (guessing I walked under too many ladders or broken too many mirrors), my character progress is now almost non existent.

I honestly think the gear based item quantity should still have an affect on personal map drops,even if it is only a percentage of the users actual item quantity, because making endgame available through incredible luck is a bad way to go with things. If you don't want players to do high level maps as much, increase the difficulty of the mobs and bosses in them, essentially forcing people to party with more people or wait till they feel they are ready.

Another thing that really really annoys me, is that in a reasonably high level maps, (lets say a lvl 65), there have been no map drops when suddenly, FINALLY! A map! Only then to realize it is a level 60-61 map. This, this is just dumb. To progress to a high level map in which you might have spent a lot of currency on orbs and gear just to roll/run it to have this drop is like getting kicked in the teeth, or the put it better, playing snakes and ladders and landing on a snake that brings you back to the very start. I don't think this is great design. We all know that there is a range of maps you can get from within your current map, with maps up to 2 levels higher being able to drop. But there should be a range for lower level maps to drop too, probably up to two levels lower, so you don't have to feel like you have taken a massive leap backwards when a low level map drops. An example would be that a level 65 map has a map drop range of 63-67.

Again because of the current map system, the actual cost of doing maps has gone up, not just because I feel there is a noticeable lack of them now being not as abundant, but the fact that players have to spend more just to get high added item quantity on them. The old system had area mods, increased pack size, and magic/rare mobs as the most desirable mods. Now, on top of those, we also need added quantity, or else it will all count to naught. I feel this is detrimental to players. Sure it should cost players to run these maps, but how much? Maps can be extremely short if there is no area on it, meaning players can work so hard to get to that level, to drop back down again within a matter of minutes. This is unnecessary, and I feel most players would agree maps should be bigger in general.

Like I said before, I believe the PoE team has done a great job so far, but with the latest patchs for the map system I think they have taken a misstep to solving the map system issue.

Thanks

IGN: Cuchullainn

Just a few thoughts from someone who has actually been getting more maps after the change.

As a lot of people point out getting higher level maps is becoming a problem and I haven't gone past 65 yet. As far as I understood GGG intended maps not to be too easily accessible so you can always run highest level maps without effort. That is good in my opinion and would make maps more special but the problem is that the rest of the content become very boring and unrewarding after a certain point.

What I would love to see in act 3 is several zones that maybe even goes few levels higher that map starting level. This would give some variety to those who don't get lucky on the maps and actually running lower level maps would still have a point because of increased item quantity on them. Some people suggested some kind of endless dungeon but in my opinion it should have a drawback to not make running maps pointless. I think dungeon like this with a penalty to quantity or rarity could be interesting. It would give ability to progress in level even if you are unlucky with higher level maps and maps could be a bigger boost to your chances of getting a high level items. For example if there was some kind of endless dungeon with huge penalty to item quality and maybe even some boost to quantity it would still allow you to gain good experience and might encourage more item "crafting".

"

NoOnesUtopia wrote:

How about introducing a currency item which increases the level of a map?

There is already a recipe that gives you a map of the next level for selling three (same) maps to a vendor. (but you have to farm 3 times the maps, of course)

Seriously, what did people do before this patch? Slap on 100% and more IIQ and swim in maps?

I have never dropped such a ton of maps like I do now since the patch. I will never again run out of maps, I constantly see them dropping everyhwere. Each map I run usually drops 1-3 maps. It is really good what they did here and everyone complaining is insane.

The problem is people that were incredibly lucky or had still modifiers that are now in legacy were all alone up top dropping the high end maps. This has been taken away from them and now the common man can get proper endgame experience too. That is what those people don't like since they don't feel exclusive anymore and they start whining.

GGG needs to adress the whole mass of potential customers though and not just the top 1% and with this patch they did everything right to do just that. The few people complaining now will get used to maintaining their map status instead of drowning in maps, rerolling them to no end etc etc. That is really not necessary and it is good that has been taken out. Now you gotta start to think on how to use maps properly and trust me in the end it will be a much more satisfying feeling to always be somewhat on the edge.

To the poster above, I never really did maps before the latest patch. The reason, I was just stocking them up doing fellshrine runs for me and my wife to play, well she has a second job now and never plays anymore. So I took my stock which was up to twelve and started doing maps. This was right around the new patch. I'm on the forums a good bit so I knew I needed to roll a lot of increased quantity. So I'm using what little chisels and alchs I have to get higher percents. I did two 80% quantity and one 50% quantity and got no maps from Amy of those. I did get some regals so fair enough I suppose. And a white level 62 2 hand sword so that's fine. But now I'm down to 8 maps because another 30% gave me no maps. I'm afraid to even do the others now. And I've yet to see higher than a level 62.

I just think the experience with maps needs to be more consistent across all players that's all.

Well, but that is pretty much what I am experiencing right now. I know I said myself that a single player cannot create a sample size that quick and all, but still after the patch being out some time now I can say that I have never had so many maps and never saw them dropping so often like I do now.

Hell, I am running a new char up through merciless right now and he started dropping maps in act 1 merciless at Merveil's lair. He just reached act 2 and already has 3 maps.

I am playing in a somewhat decently sized group and I have yet to hear from anyone complaining that they drop no maps. All of them are on my side saying they get as constant map drops as never before.

So I am saying it is more fair and more evenly distributed than ever before. Prior to 0.9.12. you had to have amazing IIQ gear or you were screwed. Now everyone has a shot at endgame.

Perhaps the base number of magic/rare monsters could be increased on the maps, thereby increasing the chance of higher level maps dropping, while presumably making maps more difficult/riskier to complete.