GGG, so your idea of addressing anything evasion related.....

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SoujiroSeta wrote:

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DeathDiciple wrote:

Hm, did not think about mixing it with IR. Acro+Phase acro+1/2 (IR+granite)...

Granted it depends on how damage/hp numbers scale anymore. But while armor values get boosted by lower damage alone, and hp numbers go down to match damage numbers, evasion stays the same. The only thing it's good for is preventing stunlocks on low hp builds (CI/lowlife) and arrow dodging...

Yeah it's highly likely this will have total opposite effect than intended (assuming intended effect was for it to be actually useful for evasion not armor)

I'm likely gonna be flamed, but the only way to fix IR (and allow fixing evasion without causing huge armor overload) is to remove it.

BOLDED PART X 10000

Armor will be better with the new lower monster dmg, but evasion will still stay the same.

Life totals will be reduced, and 50% evasion will still guarantee that 50% of hits still connect, just like they do now. You will still get stunlocked and die, just like you do now. Nothing has changed at all.

Uselessness before patch, Uselessness after patch.

The current entropy evasion system doesn't prevent stunlock btw. It actually promotes it. Funny isn't it.

When 4 hits come your way, 2 will connect, if you have 50% evasion and you're in a map. You take 100 physcial all the time. Enemies deal a lot of physical. By the time you recover from the stun caused by the first guaranteed hit, the second hit will connect, and you'll be stunned again. By this time the other monsters who missed/hit will be swinging again for round 2. The 3rd guaranteed hit stuns you, and by the time you recover.....You get the picture.

I'm being overly generous when i say 4 hits. Monsters come at you in hordes, so 4 hits is a HUGE understatement.


If it were up to me, Iron reflexes would have been removed in closed beta. This cover up keystone shows that GGG knows that evasion doesn't work, so they allowed it to be converted into something that can work, armor.

I dotn agree its a cover up, its a keystone that has its use, the fact that everyone who wears evasion and survives has it specced shows up ev as a problem, I think thats the problem, the fact you would need to use IR in the first place. If EV was good then IR wouldn't be op as its an equal trade and the node could remain as a useful thing.

Removing Iron Reflexes does nothing for Evasion, fix Evasion and its no longer an issue.

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Courageous wrote:

Iron Reflexes has its use, but it should not be the mainstay of the Evasion character as it appears to be now. It could reasonably (perhaps) be said to be the mainstay of the Evasion melee character, but even that's suboptimal.

There was a great discussion about a keystone called "Cheat Death." One suggestion would have it work like this:

"Attacks that reduce your health below 0 AND deal at least XX% of your max HP in one hit have their damage reduced by a percentage of your Evasion equal to the percentage of max HP it would deal."

That was a pretty appropriate keystone for a pure evasion user.

Hmmm, that sounds like a really strong keystone.

It dives into the realm of dmg reduction and could be hard to balance.

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decoyed wrote:

To fix Iron Reflexes; why not make it similar to Acrobatics? So it would read: "Iron Reflexes: Convert 50% of evasion rating into armor. You cannot evade." (save for the base 5% evasion chance that is)


Also, to help avoid getting stun-locked with evasion. Why not have it give a chance to avoid stuns (or maybe reduce duration?) like it does with crits?

Adding that to iron reflexes would be a step in the right direction

BUT

this "lets allow the other armor types to work with anything evasion related cause evasion is useless" fix GGG follows is a problem.

Why do they always call on armor or energy shield to save anything evasion related?

This practically confirms they know evasion/acrobatics don't work. Yet all they every do is just "convert it to another armor type", or "make it usable with endurance charges and granites"

That has been their solution.

I'm 99.99% sure they will add a "convert your evasion rating to energy shield" keystone. At this point it's expected.

I mean how else is evasion going to "work" without big brother armor or big sister energy shield?


Allow evasion to aviod stuns goes into the realm of energy shield, which also gives a 50% chance to avoid stuns. It shouldn't have to "borrow" other mechanics from other defensive types. It can have it's own separate mechanic that works.

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Torin wrote:

I never made a IR char. Evasion + arrow dodging is cool.. with a shield and acrobatics you can do melee with lots of movement. Until you get to high levels and inability to use granites kills you often. So they buffed acrobatics and reduced enemy damage and these chars of mine just might work.

A shield is all you need really. Acrobatics for 5 points is a waste. Those 5 points can be used to spec into shield block chance. 10000x better than acro will ever be.

Anything evasion related can be "buffed" when you allow it to be used with endurance charges and granites. That just shows how useless the mechanic was before the change.

Monster dmg reduction doesn't help evasion. You'll have less life now, and you'll still get stunlocked cause the entropy system gurantees stunlocks.

You're using a shield so the block chance is really helping. Evasion and acro alone won't do anything for you in maps.....unless you're attacking from a distance and spamming whirling blades 99% of the time.

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Courageous wrote:

This statement is only true for evasion melee. Evasion + arrow dodging totally rules on ranged chars.

Ranged in general can work with a lot of setups. The best defense is to not get hit at all. Evasion + arrow dodging works on melee too. That's the only thing evasion has for it. Arrow dodging.

I'm not asking for "melee dodging" here, but atleast it should be useful against melee attacks. Right now it's is complete crap. Even with acro. Both don't do a single thing. If they were deleted from the tree they won't be missed.

And worst of all acrobatcs costs 5 points. 5 passives spent to get absolutely nothing in return.

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PolarisOrbit wrote:

I was really hoping they would separate Acrobatics and Phase Acrobatics to separate parts of the tree- one of them removes Armor, the other removes Energy Shield. And you could pick either one without having to pick the other. I think it would have been both easier to balance (since getting both of them would be a bigger investment they could be stronger individually), and created some build diversity as well (allows hybrid evasion+armor or evasion+shield).

I probably should have posted some feedback about this before GGG tweaked it. Too bad...

edit: oh yeah, and Iron Reflexes should have gotten the axe. It's a hideous skill.

Hmmm, that's a nice idea. I personally like it.

2 separate keystones not linked to each other, and acro not being 5pts.

It doesn't matter if you post feedback. They won't listen anyway.

Their system is working as intended, and their fix for anything evasion related is to convert it or allow armor/es/endurance charges.

This was an expected change.

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Uvne wrote:

Just want to add to consensus here that allowing evasion to hybridize is a consolation buff for making pure evasion characters competitive with other kinds of defense. I heard talk about this change to Acrobatics a while ago, and I'm pretty surprised they went ahead with it given how damning it is for evasion mechanically.

As for IR, I'm guessing that it's already been adjusted. RT and IR were already mentioned in Carl's opening balance statement for OB, so those are probably the nerfs the 11.0 overview was tiptoeing around.

Consolation buff for evasion character?

This change practically makes acrobatics mandatory with armor. The new "evasive" characters will be armor and acrobatics, not acrobatics and evasion.

All they have to do to balance IR is delete it from the tree. It's been a long time coming.

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Flab wrote:

Consolation buff?

Holy shit, unless armour is somehow significantly more general and has some big ass buffs, I think acrobatics is mandatory now.

Edit:
Evasion itself can only support something, virtually random binary results and issues regarding monster damage and hp pools guarantee this. If the outcome is 0.0*5000 or 1.0*5000 over and over and your hp is 4000, even with a 99% chance, you're simply hoping to get lucky.

Basically evasion and armour should've been one thing, they function well together. Or rather, evasion and armour need to incorporate aspects from each other. They're neither general enough or truly potent at minimizing important maximums.

Evasion shouldn't be a "support" defense. It's primary, just like Armor/ES.

In concept, evasion is "random". So it has to be strong. Not strong broken, but strong in a balanced way.

Evasion and armor can share concepts, but what concepts are you talking about? Giving evasion some sort of dmg reduction? or armor some sort of chance to avoid dmg?

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

I dotn agree its a cover up, its a keystone that has its use, the fact that everyone who wears evasion and survives has it specced shows up ev as a problem, I think thats the problem, the fact you would need to use IR in the first place. If EV was good then IR wouldn't be op as its an equal trade and the node could remain as a useful thing.

Removing Iron Reflexes does nothing for Evasion, fix Evasion and its no longer an issue.

Look at it this way.

If you had 15 endurance charges up all the time, which yield a flat 75% physical dmg reduction, physical dmg won't phase you much at all.

If you had 15 energy shield, you'd be able to take a ton of hits.

If you had 75% pure rng evasion you could still get killed to melee attackers in the blink of an eye cause of how rng works. At the same time you could only be hit a few times in the midst of many attackers.

If you had 75% entropy evasion, the current system, you could still get killed quickly. Hits would be guaranteed, and with how monsters come to you in hordes and with how attacks come in very quickly, all it would take would be a few guaranteed hits.

The thing is you'll never get to 75% evasion with the way evasion scales.

Evasion scaling is terrible as it is. GGG doesnt understand that evasion needs to be able to reach high numbers to be usefull.

50% flat dmg reduction from armor =/= 50% evasion. Armor would always be better. To make them equal you'll need a much higher evasion number.

50% flat dmg reduction ~ 75% evasion.

Evasion will never scale this well. Why? As i said earlier Iron reflexes. It would make the keystone even more broken than it already is.

If they delete Iron reflexes then evasion can scale to higher numbers. Then they can continue balancing from there.

I just want to address one thing. The thing where they went wrong a long time ago - when EVA had higher ranking than armor, therefore forcing people into IR just for that, what did they do? Instead of nerfing IR they nerfed EVA!?

At this stage you just can't push eva values higher (to their necesary values) due to IR existence. What do we get instead? Find an optimal value where IR/2+30% is higher than IR (or armor) would've been on it's own, keeping in mind that dodge works on non-avoidable things AND phase 20% adds a bit of value too...

With 'same values' EV will never be good enough to make IR not being the obvious solution, period. No entropy can fix that, nor any half assed solution like that. The evade chance % calculations have to change, or evasion numbers need to change.

How do AC tanks work in other games? By being able to hit the sweet spot so they evade 90-95% of the attack. Noone would give 2 shits about it if he could reach 'max 60%' or something like that.