GGG, so your idea of addressing anything evasion related.....

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DeathDiciple wrote:

Hm, did not think about mixing it with IR. Acro+Phase acro+1/2 (IR+granite)...

Granted it depends on how damage/hp numbers scale anymore. But while armor values get boosted by lower damage alone, and hp numbers go down to match damage numbers, evasion stays the same. The only thing it's good for is preventing stunlocks on low hp builds (CI/lowlife) and arrow dodging...

Yeah it's highly likely this will have total opposite effect than intended (assuming intended effect was for it to be actually useful for evasion not armor)

I'm likely gonna be flamed, but the only way to fix IR (and allow fixing evasion without causing huge armor overload) is to remove it.

BOLDED PART X 10000

Armor will be better with the new lower monster dmg, but evasion will still stay the same.

Life totals will be reduced, and 50% evasion will still guarantee that 50% of hits still connect, just like they do now. You will still get stunlocked and die, just like you do now. Nothing has changed at all.

Uselessness before patch, Uselessness after patch.

The current entropy evasion system doesn't prevent stunlock btw. It actually promotes it. Funny isn't it.

When 4 hits come your way, 2 will connect, if you have 50% evasion and you're in a map. You take 100 physcial all the time. Enemies deal a lot of physical. By the time you recover from the stun caused by the first guaranteed hit, the second hit will connect, and you'll be stunned again. By this time the other monsters who missed/hit will be swinging again for round 2. The 3rd guaranteed hit stuns you, and by the time you recover.....You get the picture.

I'm being overly generous when i say 4 hits. Monsters come at you in hordes, so 4 hits is a HUGE understatement.


If it were up to me, Iron reflexes would have been removed in closed beta. This cover up keystone shows that GGG knows that evasion doesn't work, so they allowed it to be converted into something that can work, armor.

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Torin wrote:

Or evasion builds that normally used Acrobatics can ignore IR but can use Granite Flasks which was impossible before. If Granite still gives same bonus and all enemies do less damage they might be useful with Acrobatics.

Why would you ignore iron reflexes? Why would you use evasion to begin with unless you're like me and gimp yourself on purpose?

If i went iron reflexes right now my character would be better. Not even a question.

The bolded part is the reason for this thread's creation.

You're talking about evasion, and a keystone made for it. Yet, evasion and the keystone ONLY become viable when you include another armor type.

Evasion cannot stand alone. Acrobatics cannot stand alone. You must always call on big brother Armor and big sister Energy Shield to help out and try and make them not so useless.

"

drakar8888 wrote:

Doubt anyone would flame you, cos you are right :). Iron reflexes should have never made it to open beta, it makes it impossible to have proper armour balance. But it did make it, so we kinda learned to deal with it and moved along.

This is a huge part of the problem.

Evasion scaling is terrible. Why? Iron reflexes. If it scales well, like it should, then you would get insane armor values with iron reflexes.

In other words, evasion is completely balanced around one keystone that converts it to armor.

Rather than delete it, make evasion scale better, and go away from 100% GUARANTEED TO GET YOU STUNLOCKED AND KILLED entropy, we are left with a defense mechanic that is useless.........until you convert it to armor.

This also brings up another topic.

GGG believes that evasion "can" work as long as you stack a lot of health.

This is quite laughable. I've taken every single life/str node in the shadow area, except 3 8% nodes, and most of the ones in the ranger area. With life on every piece of gear, except my chest, and i'm sitting at 3132 hp. This is at lvl 74. I also have about 250 str. I'm traveling to the duelist tree to get more health and str.

Apparently, by GGG's definition of evasion working, I'm to have 6k hp (practically a tank) AND 50% evasion AND all resists.

You guys at GGG need to stop using your dev tools to create characters and actually play the game, you know, the way every non dev would play it.

SHOW ME AN ENDGAME CHARACTER WITH ATLEAST:

45% chance to evade
6k hp
Max elemental resists

I mean after all evasion characters can work if they are also tanks as well right? I mean some how they are supposed to stack evasion, which will still be useless at 50%, and also reach 6k hp at the same time. While having max resists and just enough dmg so it doesn't take them 10000yrs to clear fellshrine.

Lemme guess? We'll also have to use a shield too? Well in that case why even use evasion? Just stack block chance (which, you know, actually works), and hp.


When it comes time to testing GGG, rather than opening up your dev tools and typing


6k hp
60% chance to evade
85 all resists
75 chaos resist
10k dps

and jumping into a map to test and see how evasion works, why don't you actually pick a realistic, I cannot stress realistic any further, evasion character (who isn't specced into shield/dual wield block) and see how your own defensive mechanic works.

Or maybe I'm asking for too much?

All I would like is for you to play your game with a REALISTIC EVASIVE UPCLOSE CHARACTER, ranged won't get hit anyway and you can go naked. Not with some made up "plug in numbers that will never exist" toon and call it a day.


Show me 1, just 1, REALISTIC upclose evasive character, that had to trade for gear (and not create perfect gear out of thin air), without block chance, that fits the bill of what you call a workable evasive character, and I will concede.

As of right now, I'm led to believe not 1 staff member on your team has actually used anything evasion related, and all of you are probably freeze pulsing/EK-ing/Ligthning arrowing/etc from a distance while using armor or CI.



You guys need to understand that with different armor types comes different characters.

CI will have a huge sponge hit pool (lets just say 8k ES)

Armor users will have less hp pool than CI (4.5-5k)

Evasion users will have the lowest hp pool (2.8-3.5k)

This is how the tree is designed. It's hard to get a lot of life as a shadow/ranger without going to marauder/duelist/templar.

Yet, you guys contradict your tree's design when you say "Evasion "can" work as long as evasion users are tanks"

So armor users should be reaching energy shield numbers with 10k hp, and evasion users should reach 7k hp as well.

To fix Iron Reflexes; why not make it similar to Acrobatics? So it would read: "Iron Reflexes: Convert 50% of evasion rating into armor. You cannot evade." (save for the base 5% evasion chance that is)


Also, to help avoid getting stun-locked with evasion. Why not have it give a chance to avoid stuns (or maybe reduce duration?) like it does with crits?

"

SoujiroSeta wrote:

"

Torin wrote:

Or evasion builds that normally used Acrobatics can ignore IR but can use Granite Flasks which was impossible before. If Granite still gives same bonus and all enemies do less damage they might be useful with Acrobatics.

Why would you ignore iron reflexes? Why would you use evasion to begin with unless you're like me and gimp yourself on purpose?

If i went iron reflexes right now my character would be better. Not even a question.

The bolded part is the reason for this thread's creation.

You're talking about evasion, and a keystone made for it. Yet, evasion and the keystone ONLY become viable when you include another armor type.

Evasion cannot stand alone. Acrobatics cannot stand alone. You must always call on big brother Armor and big sister Energy Shield to help out and try and make them not so useless.

I never made a IR char. Evasion + arrow dodging is cool.. with a shield and acrobatics you can do melee with lots of movement. Until you get to high levels and inability to use granites kills you often. So they buffed acrobatics and reduced enemy damage and these chars of mine just might work.

"

Evasion cannot stand alone. Acrobatics cannot stand alone. You must always call on big brother Armor and big sister Energy Shield to help out and try and make them not so useless.

This statement is only true for evasion melee. Evasion + arrow dodging totally rules on ranged chars.

"

Also, to help avoid getting stun-locked with evasion. Why not have it give a chance to avoid stuns (or maybe reduce duration?) like it does with crits?

Not a bad idea: you could apply it to stun and all status effects.

I was really hoping they would separate Acrobatics and Phase Acrobatics to separate parts of the tree- one of them removes Armor, the other removes Energy Shield. And you could pick either one without having to pick the other. I think it would have been both easier to balance (since getting both of them would be a bigger investment they could be stronger individually), and created some build diversity as well (allows hybrid evasion+armor or evasion+shield).

I probably should have posted some feedback about this before GGG tweaked it. Too bad...

edit: oh yeah, and Iron Reflexes should have gotten the axe. It's a hideous skill.

Just want to add to consensus here that allowing evasion to hybridize is a consolation buff for making pure evasion characters competitive with other kinds of defense. I heard talk about this change to Acrobatics a while ago, and I'm pretty surprised they went ahead with it given how damning it is for evasion mechanically.

As for IR, I'm guessing that it's already been adjusted. RT and IR were already mentioned in Carl's opening balance statement for OB, so those are probably the nerfs the 11.0 overview was tiptoeing around.