Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

As this thread has turned from an actual discussion into a hate spewing attack against other members of the community.

I'm out.

Wrathmar, lethal, and planet: despite our differences, I've enjoyed actually talking with you about this topic in civil manner.

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Aixius wrote:

Ah, but the Chris Rock quote had a message (which was in bold); the George Carlin quote is just explaining a historical origin. A perfect example of how you speak much but say little.

Don't stand up just now. The point is flying right over your head.

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Xaxyx wrote:

You create a description of the least-desirable kind of person imaginable, arbitrarily attribute that description to people who like FFA loot, and your argument is that you didn't 'technically' say those people were worse than the "other" group of people for whom you gave sunny description? Seriously? That is your response?

What's so undesirable about greed? This game's loot system is designed around greed. I have a *direct quote from the lead developer* asserting that this game's loot system is driven by greed, in precisely those words. Yet it's your assertion that greed is undesirable? Maybe you're on the wrong side of this tent. May I see your ticket?

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You implied that "REDS" were worse than "GREENS" when you made up your little system - which is all it is: a made-up system. I wouldn't assert that "REDS" are anything because the term "RED" has no value except to you, because you arbitrarily assigned the value in the first place with your various negative descriptions.

Of course it's a made-up system. I even said so when I made it up. I find it fascinating, though, that you automatically associate greed with negativity. Why do you suppose that is? What aspect of your ethical system propels you to make this association?

Xaxyx certainly has a point with his reference to the Prisoner's Dilemma. At least something to think about.

The most simple solution to this almost 2 years old discussion (yes, GGG has planned OB on its anniversary) would be to give both sides what they want. FFA for the FFA-ers and non-FFA for the non-FFA-ers. Just as an option when creating the multi-player instance.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

As this thread has turned from an actual discussion into a hate spewing attack against other members of the community.

I'm out.

Wrathmar, lethal, and planet: despite our differences, I've enjoyed actually talking with you about this topic in civil manner.

Sad to see you go SL4Y3R. Always nice and understanding. This thread will miss you......

Wanting to play in a red environment is not inherently bad, just like wanting to play in a green environment is not inherently bad. They are two different play styles and the game population will be able to support both.

What’s bad is Red players forcing Green players to play in their desired environment. In this situation the Red player gets extra loot and the Green player becomes frustrated. Default will be where most players hang out long term. FORCING a play style upon a large segment of the player base is a very bad idea and will hurt the game in the long run. FFA should be an option that IRL friends and Red players can enjoy without frustrating Green players

At some point in this debate most Red players have posted in agreement to some small yet meaningful change to the current system. D2 was a great game but it had many flaws including FFA loot.

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Xaxyx wrote:

Of course it's a made-up system. I even said so when I made it up. I find it fascinating, though, that you automatically associate greed with negativity. Why do you suppose that is? What aspect of your ethical system propels you to make this association?

Apparently you are easily fascinated. Your posts are laden with this trash, which is all I need to post:

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Xaxyx wrote:

Yet by some staggering, astounding coincidence, the players who we would arbitrarily label as REDS by this standard turn out to exhibit precisely the sort of personality traits we might suspect: bullying, abusive, intolerant, clinging desperately to the hope that they'll be permitted and encouraged to practice their obnoxious behavior beyond their wildest sociopathic dreams. Even down to the most stereotypical of bully responses: when challenged, they lash out viciously, attacking, foaming at the mouth, refusing to even consider for the slightest instant that they might be in the wrong.

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Aixius wrote:

Apparently you are easily fascinated. Your posts are laden with this trash, which is all I need to post

And thus you make my point for me. Thanks again! I couldn't ask for a better friend. Don't quit on us now. You're doing so well.

I can see the future ...

In Town Party Poster Boards ...

-A1 Merv - Greens only pls
-A2 Leveling - GFTO Greens
-Team Ninja - Reds Only

and so forth.

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Xaxyx wrote:

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Aixius wrote:

Apparently you are easily fascinated. Your posts are laden with this trash, which is all I need to post

And thus you make my point for me. Thanks again! I couldn't ask for a better friend. Don't quit on us now. You're doing so well.

i.e the most stereotypical of bully responses: when challenged, they lash out viciously, attacking, foaming at the mouth, refusing to even consider for the slightest instant that they might be in the wrong.

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wrathmar wrote:

Wanting to play in a red environment is not inherently bad, just like wanting to play in a green environment is not inherently bad. They are two different play styles and the game population will be able to support both.

I agree, of course, on principle. But the devs -- Chris in particular -- seemingly do not. Again, to play devil's advocate, here's my understanding of his stance. (Side note: I don't speak for Chris; this is just what I believe I've gleaned from his posts and emails.)

Chris, it seems, doesn't want players to be able to play in a comfortable group environment. Chris seems to feel that playing in a group environment has so many advantages, so many inherent bonuses, that these must necessarily be compensated for by introducing some additional factor of danger. Rather than attempting to leverage game mechanics to construct an appropriate compensation for this seeming issue, Chris has instead seemingly chosen to let players manufacture that level of threat themselves, by exposing the loot to natural greed.

Thus, Chris seems to be using greed as a counterbalance to grouping benefits. He uses that word, specifically, explicitly. Greed. To counterbalance game mechanics. That would seem to be his philosophy, his will. Thus, the question of letting some players avoid FFA loot is practically a non-starter. Petitioning for the removal of FFA loot, in his eyes, I might surmise, is paramount to asking for the game to be easier. And I'm sure we can all gather what the response to that might be.

At this juncture, my thoughts lean toward offering Chris an alternative solution to weakening and/or counterbalancing group benefits.

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JoannaDark wrote:

I can see the future ...

In Town Party Poster Boards ...

-A1 Merv - Greens only pls
-A2 Leveling - GFTO Greens
-Team Ninja - Reds Only

and so forth.

Oh God no. I think we are old enough to not use colors. A longer timer is a longer timer. Its self explanatory.