Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

"

Sickness wrote:

What do you think the group bonus is there for?

Screw it, I'll play devil's advocate today. Why IS there a group bonus?

This game was designed to be solo. Chris has said as much. Why, therefore, are there rewards for grouping? Why encourage group play at all?

Grouping has inherent advantages. Consider the most absurdly simplistic of grouping scenarios:

Scenario 1: Two players play simultaneously in two solo games. They each face a zombie. Each zombie has N hit points. They each take some damage, kill their zombie and get precisely one zombie's worth of experience, and one zombie's worth of loot.

Scenario 2: Two players play cooperatively in a multi-player game. They face two zombies together. Each zombie has 2*N hit points. Here, however, there are arguably some distinctions:
- One player has better armor/dodge/etc and "tanks" the zombies; thus, less net zombie damage is dealt
- One player is a glass cannon and can focus on damage-dealing rather than avoidance
- Each player perhaps gives some of buff/aura/etc to the other player, lessening risk, increasing efficiency

And again, in the end, each player gets 2*N/2 = N worth of zombie experience and loot.

Where in there is the need to give the players any sort of additional reward for cooperating? If anything, cooperation is clearly its own reward. Hell, I'm half-temped to frickin' *penalize* players who play cooperatively. Harumph!

I'm a little worried about my good buddy SMRD. His account was deleted? Did he make a new one? Anyone know?

"

Xaxyx wrote:

"

Aixius wrote:

Just because some players don't want ANY competition on ANY level of the gameplay doesn't mean the devs have to do anything to cater to those players.

Conversely, just because some players want to be able to abuse and bully any players they see on the screen whenever the mood strikes them doesn't mean the devs have to cater to their whims, either. Now, are there any more self-evident, stunningly obvious assertions you'd like to exchange?

Ah, but the difference is that the system I like is already in place, and the devs are "pretty happy with it". Add all the sarcasm you like, throwing my own point back at me doesn't make for a good argument because I'm not asking the devs to cater to me: they already do.

"

Xaxyx wrote:

"

Aixius wrote:

I think my first post in this thread was around page 133...perhaps you should read the thread, since I don't recall seeing you post other than the past day or two, in which you've written post after post basically calling the devs idiots for their design choices. These guys have invested their time and capital for years making this game, yet they're supposed to just cave and change their game the moment some of you can't handle something?

Are you a dev? No? Then don't speak for them or pretend that you represent their interests.

Ah I see, so you're going to pretend that I haven't been reading this thread for months, skip any actual argument, and just cop out with "you aren't a dev"? These people have invested years of their lives into making this game, and they care more about their product than you do, guaranteed.

"

Xaxyx wrote:

"

Aixius wrote:

You guys with your doom-and-gloom "you gotta cater to casuals or it'll be a ghost town!" professional MMO advice are just funny. This game was designed from the get-go as a hardcore ARPG, something the devs themselves would love to play; nobody should be surprised that they don't want to stray far from their vision. Some of you seem to be surprised that the devs even have a vision for their game and that they're somehow foolish for sticking to it.

The really pathetic part is that we're actually attempting to prevent ghost-town-itis by petitioning the devs to drink some coffee, roll up their sleeves and make one tiny change to the game mechanics to accommodate a huge swath of their playerbase. But all the REDS hear is "whine whine carebear hand me free shinies whine whine". This same dichotomy has existed in online gaming since the invention of the 300 baud rate modem. When will the madness end?

So what is your point? Your so-called "REDS" are apparently the devs. Your "one tiny change" could be something that they feel changes their entire game, so it's not just as simple as "roll up your sleeves and do it" just because someone with no stake in the game says to.

"

Xaxyx wrote:

"

Aixius wrote:

Perhaps you should go find a big corporate studio to make your ideal game: you can lobby their PR department, who will pass that on to a developer, who will perhaps take that to a project manager, who will weigh the suggestion based on dollars and cents. Truly inspired.

No, instead I'll continue posting here, every day, carefully and patiently explaining my point of view, alongside my fellow GREENS who do the same. Similarly, I'll watch in wry amusement as REDS fling themselves desperately at the wall, terrified in horror at the notion that their hunting grounds might dry up, all the while ignoring the truth: your hunting grounds WILL dry up, because GREENS will either continue to play solo (as they chose to do in D2), or simply quit in droves.

Defenders don't fling themselves at walls, genius: FFA is in place. By the way, your need to polarize the issue and label people either "RED" or "GREEN" is both sad and narrow-minded, and it reeks of American politics. Your attempt to attach all "negative" player qualities and tendencies to that "RED" label is a malicious oversimplification designed to whip people who haven't formed an opinion into a frenzy, which ultimately makes your whole "RED vs GREEN" argument ring hollow. You seem to be hoping for mob support based on slimy tactics because you're unhappy that you don't (currently) have dev support.

"

Aixius wrote:

Ah, but the difference is that the system I like is already in place, and the devs are "pretty happy with it". Add all the sarcasm you like, throwing my own point back at me doesn't make for a good argument because I'm not asking the devs to cater to me: they already do.

And you're asking them to keep it that way, which amounts to the same thing. Sarcasm notwithstanding. (Still fun, though, I must admit.)

"

Aixius wrote:

Ah I see, so you're going to pretend that I haven't been reading this thread for months, skip any actual argument, and just cop out with "you aren't a dev"? These people have invested years of their lives into making this game, and they care more about their product than you do, guaranteed.

Perhaps you didn't hear me clearly the first time, so I'll reiterate. Are you a dev? No? Then don't speak for them or pretend that you represent their interests.

"

Aixius wrote:

So what is your point? Your so-called "REDS" are apparently the devs. Your "one tiny change" could be something that they feel changes their entire game, so it's not just as simple as "roll up your sleeves and do it" just because someone with no stake in the game says to.

Clearly not, or they'd have done it already. Captain Obvious to the rescue!

"

Aixius wrote:

Defenders don't fling themselves at walls, genius: FFA is in place.

Oh, I don't know. There seems to be quite a bit of flinging going on from your end of things.

"

Aixius wrote:

By the way, your need to polarize the issue and label people either "RED" or "GREEN" is both sad and narrow-minded, and it reeks of American politics. Your attempt to attach all "negative" player qualities and tendencies to that "RED" label is a malicious oversimplification designed to whip people who haven't formed an opinion into a frenzy, which ultimately makes your whole "RED vs GREEN" argument ring hollow. You seem to be hoping for mob support based on slimy tactics because you're unhappy that you don't (currently) have dev support.

Yet by some staggering, astounding coincidence, the players who we would arbitrarily label as REDS by this standard turn out to exhibit precisely the sort of personality traits we might suspect: bullying, abusive, intolerant, clinging desperately to the hope that they'll be permitted and encouraged to practice their obnoxious behavior beyond their wildest sociopathic dreams. Even down to the most stereotypical of bully responses: when challenged, they lash out viciously, attacking, foaming at the mouth, refusing to even consider for the slightest instant that they might be in the wrong.

I love watching Xaxyx make people look like infants. *sips coffee*
I could refresh this page all day.



SMRD still exists in the ladder, for what it's worth.

"

Xaxyx wrote:

"

Aixius wrote:

Ah, but the difference is that the system I like is already in place, and the devs are "pretty happy with it". Add all the sarcasm you like, throwing my own point back at me doesn't make for a good argument because I'm not asking the devs to cater to me: they already do.

And you're asking them to keep it that way, which amounts to the same thing. Sarcasm notwithstanding. (Still fun, though, I must admit.)

I don't need to petition the devs to keep doing what they're already doing, but I can certainly critique your suggestions for change. That's the difference: you're asking for something and I am not.

"

Aixius wrote:

Ah I see, so you're going to pretend that I haven't been reading this thread for months, skip any actual argument, and just cop out with "you aren't a dev"? These people have invested years of their lives into making this game, and they care more about their product than you do, guaranteed.

Perhaps you didn't hear me clearly the first time, so I'll reiterate. Are you a dev? No? Then don't speak for them or pretend that you represent their interests.[/quote]

Haha, am I putting words in their mouths by saying they care more about their game than you do? You actually should have reserved your "Captain Obvious" comment for this, because it is obvious that they care more than anyone.

"

Aixius wrote:

By the way, your need to polarize the issue and label people either "RED" or "GREEN" is both sad and narrow-minded, and it reeks of American politics. Your attempt to attach all "negative" player qualities and tendencies to that "RED" label is a malicious oversimplification designed to whip people who haven't formed an opinion into a frenzy, which ultimately makes your whole "RED vs GREEN" argument ring hollow. You seem to be hoping for mob support based on slimy tactics because you're unhappy that you don't (currently) have dev support.

Yet by some staggering, astounding coincidence, the players who we would arbitrarily label as REDS by this standard turn out to exhibit precisely the sort of personality traits we might suspect: bullying, abusive, intolerant, clinging desperately to the hope that they'll be permitted and encouraged to practice their obnoxious behavior beyond their wildest sociopathic dreams. Even down to the most stereotypical of bully responses: when challenged, they lash out viciously, attacking, foaming at the mouth, refusing to even consider for the slightest instant that they might be in the wrong.
[/quote]

Who, pray tell, are these legions of players that you would so arbitrarily label? Some posters in this thread? That's surely a nice paragraph describing the absolute worst people imaginable, but it's just words without weight: you want people to read your posts and associate everything bad with the word "RED", and you want people to associate the word "RED" with FFA loot. Bravo, I'm sure I'll be reading about your genius in political science texts for years to come.

"

Aixius wrote:

Defenders don't fling themselves at walls, genius: FFA is in place. By the way, your need to polarize the issue and label people either "RED" or "GREEN" is both sad and narrow-minded, and it reeks of American politics. Your attempt to attach all "negative" player qualities and tendencies to that "RED" label is a malicious oversimplification designed to whip people who haven't formed an opinion into a frenzy, which ultimately makes your whole "RED vs GREEN" argument ring hollow. You seem to be hoping for mob support based on slimy tactics because you're unhappy that you don't (currently) have dev support.

+1 Thank you for saying this. I might like FFA loot, but I'm not someone who tries and grabs anything remotely nice that drops.

Alos I'll re-titerate that the timer mechanically has a problem. If you click on an item 1-2 seconds before the end of the timer for someone else you can pick it up even though it has yet to expire. If this were fix it would feel as though the timer was an additional 1-2 seconds longer.

"

TehHammer wrote:

I love watching Xaxyx make people look like infants. *sips coffee*
I could refresh this page all day.



SMRD still exists in the ladder, for what it's worth.

Really?!?

Bullying other members with name calling, not actual making ANY points or advancing this thread in any shape or form, starting some sort of red vs green thing (like politics or race...), talking about the devs by saying, ". I wouldn't trust these guys with a copy of Notepad.exe."

Yeah, great guy...... Glad he's' in this community. What a visionary.

"

Aixius wrote:

I don't need to petition the devs to keep doing what they're already doing, but I can certainly critique your suggestions for change. That's the difference: you're asking for something and I am not.

Critiquing my suggestions for change is the defense of the status quo. You have your motives and I have mine. Knock yourself out.

"

Aixius wrote:

Haha, am I putting words in their mouths by saying they care more about their game than you do? You actually should have reserved your "Captain Obvious" comment for this, because it is obvious that they care more than anyone.

I can feel the caring already. Like a warm, gentle spring hug.

"

Aixius wrote:

Who, pray tell, are these legions of players that you would so arbitrarily label? Some posters in this thread? That's surely a nice paragraph describing the absolute worst people imaginable, but it's just words without weight: you want people to read your posts and associate everything bad with the word "RED", and you want people to associate the word "RED" with FFA loot. Bravo, I'm sure I'll be reading about your genius in political science texts for years to come.

Golly, thank you. Your approval means worlds. If anything, you're doing me the greatest service I could possibly imagine, by demonstrating, over and over again, the mindset of the average RED. In this manner, I hope to illustrate to the devs just what sort of person they're catering to, what sort of person they're being associated with. Many judge others by the company they keep. How might such individuals judge those persons who keep yours?

http://kotaku.com/5974623/the-lead-writer-of-dragon-age-largely-avoids-biowares-increasingly-toxic-forums

It's a little meta, but the story may contain points applicable for people in this thread to consider.