Dragon's Immortal Tank (Updated for 1.2)

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Argdel wrote:

Thanks guess I didn't read through carefully enough. I do have one train of thought that I need to throw out there for people to shoot down.

With Unwavering:
75% block chance no block recovery or take damage and no stun recovery time.

With Blind:
76.25% chance to evade, no stun recovery needed.
Then, 75% chance to block with a block recovery check.
Then take damage with a stun recovery chance.

It just seems to me that either way you have a 75%+ chance to all out avoid damage with no stun, but with Unwavering you are just taking the damage on the 1/4 shot. Whereas with the blind you have an additional chance not to be hit with the downside that a stun recovery check must be made.

So take Kole for example, say he managers to bypass your first 75% miss chance. Would you rather then take the damage or have another 75% miss chance then rolled at a cost of a stun recovery check or even a 0.35 second stun? It would seem to me that if he only has a 5.9ish% chance to bypass evade and block, getting stunned isn't much of an issue.

Thoughts?

To fully engage in a discussion about this, I think it is best to link some facts about Blind. So taken from poewiki here are some important things to know about blind.

• Enemies hit by skills supported with this gem have a chance to be blinded.
• Blind enemies have their chance to hit reduced by 75%.
• The base duration for blinding is 4 seconds.
• Blinding does not modify an attacker's accuracy rating, or a defender's evasion rating.
• An attacker's chance to hit is calculated normally based on their accuracy and the evasion rating of the target. That chance to hit is then reduced by 75% by blinding.
• Spells do not have a chance to hit, the ability to hit with a spell is unaffected by being blinded.
• An attacker's chance to hit is the direct opposite of the defender's chance to evade.
• Since characters with Unwavering Stance cannot evade, attacks made against them always hit. As a result, even blinded enemies will always have 100% chance to hit a character with Unwavering Stance, since the Unwavering Stance character always has 0% chance to evade.
• Blinding is not considered a status ailment, and does not interact with Critical strikes in any way.

Bringer of Rain has a level 18 Blind support linked to anything you place in the helm. Level 18 blind has a 12% chance to blind anything that supported skill hits.

So I will start. Everyone feel free to add to this if you feel like it.

Pros of blind instead of Unwavering Stance:

• Better chance of avoiding physical damage
• Saves some passive points
• Takes advantage of a free support gem

Cons of blind instead of Unwavering Stance:

• Does not protect vs magic damage
• Only has 12% chance on hit to blind
• No longer immune to stuns. Magic damage can stun. Charging mobs can stun. Blocking damage that would have caused a stun will play the block animation stunning you briefly.

This is just something I could come up with off the top of my head. Like I said, feel free to add.


Now, for those of you that want my opinion on the matter, I will give it again. In my experience, if you plan to do higher level maps it is a horrible idea to sacrifice stun immunity for a blind UNLESS you are using cyclone.

Physical damage is RARELY the cause of death to this build. It is magic damage that can be dangerous. The blind is a 12% chance on hit, not 100%. Even with my hp pool, after the last patch my mara is susceptible to status effects even with maximum resists. Elemental damage is the enemy, and blind provides no protection against it.

This is just my opinion based on my experiences. If you do choose to drop Unwavering Stance in favor of using blind, then I wish you the best of luck.


-Dragon

k i just killed vaal in merciless and....it was the worste experience i ever had fighting this boss....

my dmg is insanly low vs single target with hight hp pool,i blocked 0,yes 0 atk from vaal,eating all vaal smash that i havent been able to avoid because the stupid ass boss was always stuck in a corner and end up 1 shoting me every time.vaal light beam was stacking me 8 sec shock each time it touch me even with 73% light res (my other at at 77.....).i was wasting most of my time to try to kill those adds that keep kiting everywhere in the room and was taking many hit to take them down...


overall...died more time then doing normal act 1 to merciless act 3....about 10-15 time....and took about 10min...


nice build but need insane gear to have decent dps again 1 vs 1 and insane gear to shine end-game.i dont have much trouble again pack of mobs since infernal blow act like corpse explosion and mobs around take hudge dmg because of that but 1 vs 1 its pretty horrible dps unless you can have all your offencive aura +insane weapon +5-6link....

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zakariusqc wrote:

k i just killed vaal in merciless and....it was the worste experience i ever had fighting this boss....

my dmg is insanly low vs single target with hight hp pool,i blocked 0,yes 0 atk from vaal,eating all vaal smash that i havent been able to avoid because the stupid ass boss was always stuck in a corner and end up 1 shoting me every time.vaal light beam was stacking me 8 sec shock each time it touch me even with 73% light res (my other at at 77.....).i was wasting most of my time to try to kill those adds that keep kiting everywhere in the room and was taking many hit to take them down...


overall...died more time then doing normal act 1 to merciless act 3....about 10-15 time....and took about 10min...


nice build but need insane gear to have decent dps again 1 vs 1 and insane gear to shine end-game.i dont have much trouble again pack of mobs since infernal blow act like corpse explosion and mobs around take hudge dmg because of that but 1 vs 1 its pretty horrible dps unless you can have all your offencive aura +insane weapon +5-6link....

Vaal smash is a spell believe it or not. You need spell block to have a shot at blocking it. As for the lightning beam, that is easily avoidable if you move. I don't know much about your gear or stats so I can't help. I will say that if you don't have good gear, it will be very hard to level.

A trick I usually use for bosses is to put a dps gem or LL in place of splash since its usually not useful for a boss fight.

If you would like to post your gear and stats, I can try to help you.

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Dragon585 wrote:

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zakariusqc wrote:

k i just killed vaal in merciless and....it was the worste experience i ever had fighting this boss....

my dmg is insanly low vs single target with hight hp pool,i blocked 0,yes 0 atk from vaal,eating all vaal smash that i havent been able to avoid because the stupid ass boss was always stuck in a corner and end up 1 shoting me every time.vaal light beam was stacking me 8 sec shock each time it touch me even with 73% light res (my other at at 77.....).i was wasting most of my time to try to kill those adds that keep kiting everywhere in the room and was taking many hit to take them down...


overall...died more time then doing normal act 1 to merciless act 3....about 10-15 time....and took about 10min...


nice build but need insane gear to have decent dps again 1 vs 1 and insane gear to shine end-game.i dont have much trouble again pack of mobs since infernal blow act like corpse explosion and mobs around take hudge dmg because of that but 1 vs 1 its pretty horrible dps unless you can have all your offencive aura +insane weapon +5-6link....

Vaal smash is a spell believe it or not. You need spell block to have a shot at blocking it. As for the lighting beam, that is easily avoidable if you move.

for the vaal smash i didnt know it was considerate as a spell..kind of strange.i have 26% spell block from the unique ammy so i understand i didnt block any if bad rng.for the beam dont worry i know i can dodge it by mouving...i avoid most of them but when you fight adds and vaal is offscreen....you usualy take the first beam most of the time.i only died once to beam....first hit+1 shock,second hit also dunno why and instant 3 shock and die...





using the reduce mana from healm to my grace on weapon.i just bought a convenant chest that i should be able to use next lvl with anger/wrath so should help for dps.i use grace/vit/purity/hatred currently,cant use tempest sheild.

current stats.1386 dps/77 fire and cold res,73 light/52% block 26% spell block/2414 hp before aura/3267 armor (44% dmg reduction) -29% chaos res

my gear isnt that awsome.having really really bad rng currently.on anarchy so far i havent found a single exalte and like 1 gcp and that by playing a character to lvl 78 and this one is currently 61.most gear i find arent great also and when they are,they always miss something that make me unable to use them.socket/link is a big problem also.each time i find better gear its always a 1-2 socket....and im having bad time to fuse gear so far so i mostly stick with what i use now....


like i said,i dont have much trouble again mods or progressing its just that vaal merciless was truly a pain and it was the first time i had so much trouble to kill him.the lack of dps is pretty horrible again 1 vs 1 boss.its also a pain again mobs that kite like mage skeleton or archer,they spread out so melee splash dont touch other and take age to kill,even worste again those with energye sheild....i burn their ES and they start to kite and regen.....i usualy just skip them now....


edit:currently lvl 62,im able to use my convenant chest and using lvl 17 anger aura.increased my dps to 1591

Dragon,
I hope I didn't offend with my question I just like to understand. As of right now I haven't done a map over 70(they do go higher right?) and the only deaths I have had were from my noobness charging into lightning thorns and the occasional lucky double shot from Kole so from my experience I didn't think about the issues from spell damage where blind has no effect. Kole was definitely a lot easier but yes with the 12% blind chance I would have to stick and move for a few seconds until blind went off. I definitely can understand how end game stuff could be more problematic especially spells and I actually didn't realize that charge always stunned (am I inferring that correctly?). I will probably stick with unwavering as well after some more testing for good measure.

Your build has changed this game for me though and I definitely appreciate your advice and opinion.

Well, you are never supposed to tank Vaal's smash.
It's a move designed to one hit people.

Actually you are not supposed to tank any of Vaal's moves. Should always be moving and/or ready to move.

I always played hardcore so maybe my thinking is different, but yeah I never facetanked Vaal and will never do it, whatever build I use (*cough* the awesome blocked smash in Dragon's video haha)



PS : I'm soon to be at Merciless Vaal, I hope this message won't give me bad luck hehe

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westbryan wrote:

Well, you are never supposed to tank Vaal's smash.
It's a move designed to one hit people.

Actually you are not supposed to tank any of Vaal's moves. Should always be moving and/or ready to move.

I always played hardcore so maybe my thinking is different, but yeah I never facetanked Vaal and will never do it, whatever build I use (*cough* the awesome blocked smash in Dragon's video haha)

where did i say i tanked them?i said vaal smash that i havent been able to avoid.most of the time vaal was stuck in a fucking corner or i just launched a multistrike and i havent been able to walk far enought to avoid it or just fucking dsync.same for vaal light beam,i was avoiding them all the time unless i was fighting adds and vaal was offscreen so couldnt avoid first beam.i have been playing this game for about 5 month so i know how boss work.offcourse vaal atk isnt mean to be tanked.


the main concern about my previous post was mostly again the trash dps that make this boss a real pain to kill,the lack of mobility,multistrike that make you unable to react fast enought sometime again vaal smash.with that awfull dps i was fighting adds 3/4 of the time.its nice again everything else but vaal merciless wasnt fun at all and i never had that much trouble out of all the build i played (most melee) to kill him

"To tank" or "not being able to avoid", you get hit and killed, same story :/


I understand your frustration, I'm not giving you any lessons, neither am I a pro.., and I may get my ass kicked at the next Vaal as well ! Just trying to help, I know you're a good player ;)

You're right multistrike adds risks and decrease your reaction time, maybe as Dragon suggested, take Melee Splash out, maybe multistrike too, and use other dps supports, life leech ?

Temporal Chains / Skeleton spell totem, always useful.

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westbryan wrote:

"To tank" or "not being able to avoid", you get hit and killed, same story :/


I understand your frustration, I'm not giving you any lessons, neither am I a pro.., and I may get my ass kicked at the next Vaal as well ! Just trying to help, I know you're a good player ;)

You're right multistrike adds risks and decrease your reaction time, maybe as Dragon suggested, take Melee Splash out, maybe multistrike too, and use other dps supports, life leech ?

Temporal Chains / Skeleton spell totem, always useful.

yea would have definitly helped to put out melee splash and mabey multistrike for better dps support like weapon elemental dmg etc.life leech wouldn have helped since adds/ beam wasnt a problem unless i was shock stack and vaal smash was still 1 hit.temporal chain would have been great also to give more time to react and avoid smash.i didnt tought i would have that much trouble at first so i didnt change anything and go like that.i think about changed my infernal blow support only after the fight...i was to busy raging about vaal to think about that lol.same for temporal chain.

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zakariusqc wrote:

Spoiler

for the vaal smash i didnt know it was considerate as a spell..kind of strange.i have 26% spell block from the unique ammy so i understand i didnt block any if bad rng.for the beam dont worry i know i can dodge it by mouving...i avoid most of them but when you fight adds and vaal is offscreen....you usualy take the first beam most of the time.i only died once to beam....first hit+1 shock,second hit also dunno why and instant 3 shock and die...

using the reduce mana from healm to my grace on weapon.i just bought a convenant chest that i should be able to use next lvl with anger/wrath so should help for dps.i use grace/vit/purity/hatred currently,cant use tempest sheild.

current stats.1386 dps/77 fire and cold res,73 light/52% block 26% spell block/2414 hp before aura/3267 armor (44% dmg reduction) -29% chaos res

my gear isnt that awsome.having really really bad rng currently.on anarchy so far i havent found a single exalte and like 1 gcp and that by playing a character to lvl 78 and this one is currently 61.most gear i find arent great also and when they are,they always miss something that make me unable to use them.socket/link is a big problem also.each time i find better gear its always a 1-2 socket....and im having bad time to fuse gear so far so i mostly stick with what i use now....


like i said,i dont have much trouble again mods or progressing its just that vaal merciless was truly a pain and it was the first time i had so much trouble to kill him.the lack of dps is pretty horrible again 1 vs 1 boss.its also a pain again mobs that kite like mage skeleton or archer,they spread out so melee splash dont touch other and take age to kill,even worste again those with energye sheild....i burn their ES and they start to kite and regen.....i usualy just skip them now....

Hey man,
everything looks ok. You aren't doing anything wrong, it appears that you just need to get some dps auras going and possibly get your 5L if you can. I can sympathize with the bad luck with drops. Contrary to what so many people think, I am quite poor in game. It has taken me several months to get where I am and most days were spent farming mindlessly for hours.

Hang in there. The build is an absolute joy to play when it is ready. Gear, level, and gems all need to be in order to get the results you see in the video. I am sure you know that, I just hope you don't give up before you get to experience how fun it truly is.

edit: I just realized you are playing in the new league. That changes a lot. I have complete sympathy for your situation. I recently failed HARD at trying my own build from scratch with no gear or currency to twink the process. It sucked, and you are doing extremely well considering.

For vaal, it was suggested by someone that you can switch out Infernal blow with Lightning Strike and attack from range. Ofc, you will need to ditch splash but MS synergizes really well with lightning strike from what I hear so you would prob want to keep that. Sorry this information came after you had to struggle with vaal so much. I will definitely update the leveling guide to reflect this.

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Argdel wrote:

Spoiler

Dragon,
I hope I didn't offend with my question I just like to understand. As of right now I haven't done a map over 70(they do go higher right?) and the only deaths I have had were from my noobness charging into lightning thorns and the occasional lucky double shot from Kole so from my experience I didn't think about the issues from spell damage where blind has no effect. Kole was definitely a lot easier but yes with the 12% blind chance I would have to stick and move for a few seconds until blind went off. I definitely can understand how end game stuff could be more problematic especially spells and I actually didn't realize that charge always stunned (am I inferring that correctly?). I will probably stick with unwavering as well after some more testing for good measure.

Your build has changed this game for me though and I definitely appreciate your advice and opinion.

Hey there,
I wasn't offended in the least. My only real irritation is that I have had to answer this a few times lately, so I am getting a bit grumpy repeating myself. Which is why this time, I took the time and effort to try and explain everything, and why I feel the way I do about blind.

Not offended, and it was something I should have taken the time to explore in better detail a long time ago. I will be sure to paste it in the FAQ section. And also, I wanted to not just throw my opinion out there. I wanted to open it up for discussion and try to show it from every perspective so ppl can choose for themselves.



-Dragon