(HC/SC) Facebreaker + Cyclone - Fists of Fury Duelist [Videos Included]

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Glutton wrote:

I dont play a facebreaker build, but I do use cyclone as my main attack. However, if i did use facebreaker, i think i would use the bringer of rain helm.

First off, blind is very effective, even without armor. It is a 75% reduced chance to hit, not a 75% increased chance to dodge. If they have a 100% chance to hit you, that becomes 25% when they are blind. If they have a 50% chance normally, it becomes 12.5%. Blind js stupid overpowered. I run a 4l flame totem with blind, gmp, and faster projectiles.

Second - increased damage from abyssus is rediculous. If you have say, 30k armor, youll probably have about 80% damage reduction through level 70 stuff. Reduce that by 45 from the helm, and your left with 35%. Now you are taking 65% of their damage, compared to 20.(over 3x the damage)

Carcass jack is very underwhelming. The 20% increased AoE is mostly unnoticable. I run concentrated effect and no quality on cyclone and hit plenty. If you must have the 20% extra, all you have to do is get a 20% qual gem. Also, 12% increased damage? Lol. You already have 1000% from facebreaker, so that will give you only 1.2% extra damage.

You will lose a good deal of dps from losing the huge phys damage from abyssus, but end up being waaaay tougher. You trade damage for extra life, 75% evasion (when they are blinded), endurance charges without casting, extra block chance, and dont forget its much cheaper. And last but not least, 7l cyclone ftw.

1. If a monster has a 100% chance to hit you, that means you have Unwavering Stance, as all characters have an implicit 5% chance to evade even if Iron Reflexes is taken. Unwavering Stance means you have a 0% chance to evade, so even a blinded enemy will have a 100% hit rate against you.

2. Yes, Abyssus does hurt.

3. Numbers aren't about what you notice, they're about numbers. I want the 20% extra, so I have a 20% cyclone. I want 20% more, so I have Carcass Jack. I want 20% more, so I took Amplify and plan to grab the two 4% nodes by it. If I have the opportunity to reach far enough, I want 20% more, so I want the Blast Radius node and surrounding nodes in the witch tree.

Having a larger Cyclone radius is about more than hitting more monsters - which, in and of itself, is already very helpful. More radius means that when I'm facing a boss, it's easier for me to maneuver around it with my Cyclone but still keep it in my damage range. This means that against bosses like Brutus and Kole - the bosses against which using Abyssus would have the greatest negative impact - I can simply circle around them with a Quicksilver, and they never even get the chance to hit me, what with their slow, clunky attack animations. That's one of the obvious inherent strengths of Cyclone: you get to move, meaning you can make use of micro in a way many other melee builds can't. I may take more damage from a large physical-based hit, but Carcass gives me more leeway to ensure that I don't have to take that hit in the first place.

12% increased damage area damage is different than 1000% increased unarmed physical damage. Would 50% increased cold damage stack additively with 1000% increased unarmed physical damage to result in 1050% increased unarmed physical damage? No. Neither does 12% increased area damage. Your 1.2% extra damage number doesn't exist, and that should be painfully obvious if you stop and think about it. If you have 1000 cyclone DPS, adding 12% increased area damage is going to add a whole lot more than 12 DPS...

4. Yep. You lose a huge amount of damage from Abyssus, you said it. Also note that you have lv 18 supports instead of lv 20 supports, and that those lv 18 supports have 0 quality on them.
Physically you will be more durable, I agree. However you will deal less damage, leech less health, hit fewer monsters, and lose some ability to make use of micro with your Cyclone.

You're completely skewing the pros and cons to facilitate your argument and neglecting to admit many points you lose out on with the new unique.

Pros:
-Much, MUCH cheaper than going for a 6L Carcass
-More innately durable vs physical attacks via more life, blind, and block
-Can gain endurance charges without Enduring Cry/Warlord's Mark.
-No large physical damage taken increase that Abyssus would cause

Cons:
-Lose 20-30 physical damage, which is huge for Facebreakers (more than 2 max phys roll rings combined)
-3 Level 18, 0Q supports, which are immensely less effective than 20/20 supports. Lv 18 Melee phys provides 47% increased melee phys dmg. A 20/20 Melee phys provides 59%. Lv 18 Faster attacks provides 42% increase. 20/20 provides 54%.
-No ES buffer from Carcass, so while you are more durable due to the high HP, the difference is not as big as it first appears
-10% chance to gain Endurance Charges off of blocks is very gimmicky and unreliable. Absolutely no replacement for Warlord's Mark, which takes all of .2-.3 seconds to cast when linked, provides leech, refills flasks, and provides Endurance Charges much more effectively
-No increased radius and area damage from Carcass, which also affects ability to abuse Cyclone's mobility
-Lose out on 12% all res from Carcass/Abyssus combo
-Lose out on +25 all attributes from Abyssus, which is immensely helpful in equipping Auras

With the release of the new unique, there are two different options for endgame gearing.
Either Bringer of Rain or a 5/6L Carcass + Abyssus.
The cheaper option is clearly Bringer of Rain, and I believe it has an advantage over a 5L Carcass and Abyssus, due to how much you need to gear around Abyssus for, and the flexibility of having basically a 6L helm. Also the base hp and armor from Bringer of Rain is quite substantial. However, the radius decrease from not running a Carcass can hinder you since Concentrated Effect is basically a must-have. I'd recommend having at least reached Amplify in the Templar tree before going for Bringer of Rain.

A 6L Carcass with Abyssus is definitely the winner compared to Bringer of Rain, but is significantly more expensive. However, since it is an endgame goal, it should be aimed for by all Cyclone users. Getting the Bringer does sidetrack you away from getting an Abyssus and Carcass ready to be linked, so thought and currencies must be invested wisely.

For Facebreaker users on a budget, the new unique does fit very well.

Phylaris, i simply tried to give people my view on the helm. You taking an agressive stance towards what i was saying is ridiculous.

I used 0% chance to evade as an easy number for the calculation. Yes, u have a base 5% chance. So blind turns their hit chance into .95 * .25, which is just under 25%. You will take close to 75% less damage over time from the enemy.

I use a two handed weapon, which makes the 20% increased aoe mean alot more than with unarmed due to weapon range, and i hardly notice anything at all. 20% increase of the already tiny unarmed range is next to nothing.

I have not tested the increased aoe damage. I assume that all increase stacks together, as that is what i have seen in many other calculations. If im wrong, then im wrong. I would still take the survivability.

My post was not an argurment. It is an opinion. Not everyone comes here to be a board warrior. I saw lots of insight arguing for one side, and decided to share my opinions for the other. There is nothing in it for me if people use thst helm. Just trying to help people decide what is the best way to go for their preferred playstyle.

Relax.

The problem with your findings is that they are very general and not well tested.
Abyssus does not work additively with armor, but multiplicative. So physical damage you take is increased, but then modified by armor, it doesn't decrease the effect of armor by a set percentage.
With more testing, you will realise how useless Blind is with only 5% base evasion. The key factor lies in that Carcass will not only counter using Concentrated Effect (the best support gem for Cyclone), but will also enhance dps by 12%.

You seem to not understand how damage is calculated. Facebreaker works through multiplying your base damage (unarmed + physical damage mods), which is then multiplied through your skill gem setup. Note, this is why + melee phys is almost useless on Facebreaker builds.
Carcass multiplies the skill damage (the AoE portion), not added onto the Facebreaker percentage.

Before you add your opinion, it is always worthwhile to test your findings and have a firm knowledge of game mechanics if you do not wish to be corrected or be offended when other people disagree with your opinion.

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Glutton wrote:

Phylaris, i simply tried to give people my view on the helm. You taking an agressive stance towards what i was saying is ridiculous.

I used 0% chance to evade as an easy number for the calculation. Yes, u have a base 5% chance. So blind turns their hit chance into .95 * .25, which is just under 25%. You will take close to 75% less damage over time from the enemy.

I use a two handed weapon, which makes the 20% increased aoe mean alot more than with unarmed due to weapon range, and i hardly notice anything at all. 20% increase of the already tiny unarmed range is next to nothing.

I have not tested the increased aoe damage. I assume that all increase stacks together, as that is what i have seen in many other calculations. If im wrong, then im wrong. I would still take the survivability.

My post was not an argurment. It is an opinion. Not everyone comes here to be a board warrior. I saw lots of insight arguing for one side, and decided to share my opinions for the other. There is nothing in it for me if people use thst helm. Just trying to help people decide what is the best way to go for their preferred playstyle.

Relax.

I'm not taking an aggressive stance, I'm responding to your reasoning about the new helm with my own. Don't misinterpret a discussion for a provocation - I kept the discussion to the pros and cons of the helmet, and simply pointed out that you neglected to mention many of the ons.

Again, 20% is not about what you notice, it's about the number. You might not notice 15% more resistance or 500 more armor keeping you alive, but it does a lot for your durability. It's about the numbers here. And on another note, I can definitely notice 20%.

Your post was an opinion for one side, and my post was an opinion on the other. I'm not being a board warrior - scroll back a few pages and you'll see I was the one who brought the helm up as a possibility in this thread in the first place.

To acrosis - i use blind totem often and i have ir. The difference is night and day. Also, i said i might not know how the increased aoe works. If it increases your final damage by 12%, yeah thats big. I look at the word increase and think it adds where all other damage does. Could you please tell me ur dps with and without carcass? Id like to know for sure.


To phylaris - You say you might not notice 15% resist, but 80% resist vs 65% resist means u would take 75% extra damage. I for one would always notice that. I notice extra life, i notice extra defense. I believe that these things i notice in game have a greater impact than those i dont. I love number crunching and game theory as much as the next person. That being said, if i dont see the benefit from it in game, its has no practical use.

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Glutton wrote:

To acrosis - i use blind totem often and i have ir. The difference is night and day. Also, i said i might not know how the increased aoe works. If it increases your final damage by 12%, yeah thats big. I look at the word increase and think it adds where all other damage does. Could you please tell me ur dps with and without carcass? Id like to know for sure.


To phylaris - You say you might not notice 15% resist, but 80% resist vs 65% resist means u would take 75% extra damage. I for one would always notice that. I notice extra life, i notice extra defense. I believe that these things i notice in game have a greater impact than those i dont. I love number crunching and game theory as much as the next person. That being said, if i dont see the benefit from it in game, its has no practical use.

Yet you ignored the 12% resist from the Carcass/Abyssus combo.

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Glutton wrote:

To acrosis - i use blind totem often and i have ir. The difference is night and day. Also, i said i might not know how the increased aoe works. If it increases your final damage by 12%, yeah thats big. I look at the word increase and think it adds where all other damage does. Could you please tell me ur dps with and without carcass? Id like to know for sure.


To phylaris - You say you might not notice 15% resist, but 80% resist vs 65% resist means u would take 75% extra damage. I for one would always notice that. I notice extra life, i notice extra defense. I believe that these things i notice in game have a greater impact than those i dont. I love number crunching and game theory as much as the next person. That being said, if i dont see the benefit from it in game, its has no practical use.

Yes, by the way, it's 12% overall Cyclone increase, additive with other AOE nodes.
In addition, if you run Concentrated Effect, which adds "more" AOE damage, you get an additional 8% from the Carcass's 12%, for a total of 20% increased AOE damage from the Carcass alone.

Now think about it.
Level 18 Faster Attacks = 42%. 20/20 Faster Attacks = 54%.
Level 18 Melee Phys = 47% MORE. 20/20 Melee Phys = 59% MORE.

Bringer of the Rain vs Carcass: 20% less "increased Area Damage", 12% less "increased Attack Speed", and 12% less "MORE Melee Physical Damage."

If you really want Blind, you could even remove Faster Attacks from the Carcass entirely and stick in a Blind. (20/20 Blind, mind you, instead of 18/0).

As compared to Bringer of the Rain, Carcass with Blind instead of Faster Attacks would give:
42% less "increased Attack Speed", 20% more "increased Area Damage", 12% more "MORE Melee Physical Damage", and 19% more "increased Blind Duration".

The "7L" Cyclone on Bringer of the Rain is completely irrelevant if you're comparing it to a 6L Cyclone on Carcass. The overall stats end up being equal to and possibly even inferior to the stats provided by the 6L Carcass.

Basically the only question is if Blind is even worth taking at all. Would you take Blind over 20% more "increased Area Damage", 12% more "increased Attack Speed", and 12% more "MORE Melee Physical Damage"?

As a follow-up, if you want Blind that badly, why do you need it on Cyclone? Can't you just stick it on some skill with a large AOE radius and multiple hits like Firestorm and cast Firestorm like a pseudo-curse to get the Blind effect?

Last thing to point out would be that Blind is not a skill made for Cyclone Facebreakers. Blind already has a low trigger rate, and Facebreaker Cyclone is the slowest Cyclone available, since we have no APS boost from weapons, so we have the least chance of proccing Blind.

I'm testing it right now with 12% Blind, and I have 2 observations.

1. The proc rate for Blind with Facebreaker-cyclone is very low.
2. Most mobs die so quickly that Blind never has a chance to matter, lol.

Yeah i bet most things do die before blind procs. The only enemies you benefit alot from blinding are bosses, and i myself use heavy strike on them anyways. Because of this, the linked blind on the helm is mostly useless i admit. There are alot of people talking about blind sucking though, and thats just not true. It is definately not 75% increased chance to evade as some seem to think. When it does proc, it makes a huge difference. Still, bringer of rain give lots of life and defense, and doesnt have the added damage taken.

Basically choosing between carcass/abbyssus and bringer boils down to more dps vs more survivability and affordability. And i guess if you cant make up the lacking resists of bringer of rain, then the more suvivability goes out the window.