[2.6] The Curse Whisperer - Tri-Curse CI Whispering Ice Elementalist - Viable for Everything

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Levirael wrote:

We never used Faster Casting though? Even while using an Item Rarity gem the average damage was higher, the problem with Spell Echo was getting stuck in the animation and the inability to prestack Icestorm on bosses. I don't even use SR except on bosses, Icestorm destroys everything before the resists debuff even started to take effect. And even on bosses they're dead in seconds, except the though ones of course.

How can the damage be higher? You're replacing a 9% more multiplier from cwc with a 10% less multipler from spell echo. And with IR instead of FC you have much less cast speed than cwc.

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Astrohawke wrote:

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Levirael wrote:

We never used Faster Casting though? Even while using an Item Rarity gem the average damage was higher, the problem with Spell Echo was getting stuck in the animation and the inability to prestack Icestorm on bosses. I don't even use SR except on bosses, Icestorm destroys everything before the resists debuff even started to take effect. And even on bosses they're dead in seconds, except the though ones of course.

How can the damage be higher? You're replacing a 9% more multiplier from cwc with a 10% less multipler from spell echo. And with IR instead of FC you have much less cast speed than cwc.

You are replacing both CwC and SR. So you have Spell Echo and concentrated effect, which if I'm not wrong is a 50% more multiplier.

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Levirael wrote:

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Astrohawke wrote:

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Levirael wrote:

We never used Faster Casting though? Even while using an Item Rarity gem the average damage was higher, the problem with Spell Echo was getting stuck in the animation and the inability to prestack Icestorm on bosses. I don't even use SR except on bosses, Icestorm destroys everything before the resists debuff even started to take effect. And even on bosses they're dead in seconds, except the though ones of course.

How can the damage be higher? You're replacing a 9% more multiplier from cwc with a 10% less multipler from spell echo. And with IR instead of FC you have much less cast speed than cwc.

You are replacing both CwC and SR. So you have Spell Echo and concentrated effect, which if I'm not wrong is a 50% more multiplier.

You said you were using item rarity for the 6th slot and the damage was still higher. But let's say you put another more multiplier instead which in this case would be controlled destruction

Build for reference: http://pastebin.com/PALrbF63

SR/CWC/CE/EF/Fire Pen/Leech with max SR debuff = 11.8k hit @ 0.35s cast time.
SR/CWC/CE/EF/Fire Pen/Leech with 1 stage SR debuff = 10.2k hit @ 0.35s cast time.
CE/EF/CD/Echo/Empower/Leech = 7k hit @ 0.43s cast time.
CE/EF/CD/Echo/Cold Pen/Leech = 9.9k hit @ 0.43s cast time.

GGG posted the details of the AoE mod changes. This build is almost not affected. The actual radius of Icestorm radius with Blast Radius and Amplify becomes 3% smaller than it is now, which is a buff to DPS due to the way Icestorm/Firestorm works (smaller radius = more DPS, assuming the target is in the center).

Old: we get 20% increased RADIUS
New: we get 36% increased AREA, or ~17% increased RADIUS

Slightly smaller radius of the WM aura and Orb of Storms won't be noticeable at all.

Ball Lightning gets a nice buff to its area/radius and will apply the curses even more efficiently than before.

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Astrohawke wrote:

SR/CWC/CE/EF/Fire Pen/Leech with max SR debuff = 11.8k hit @ 0.35s cast time.
SR/CWC/CE/EF/Fire Pen/Leech with 1 stage SR debuff = 10.2k hit @ 0.35s cast time.
CE/EF/CD/Echo/Empower/Leech = 7k hit @ 0.43s cast time.
CE/EF/CD/Echo/Cold Pen/Leech = 9.9k hit @ 0.43s cast time.

The selfcast Version is using more than just other gems. It's using ligthnih golem for more cast speed, its using fire pen too.

They both do nearly the same dps for experencied and well geared players. For beginners its probably easier with SW/CWC.

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ninuvas1977 wrote:

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Astrohawke wrote:

SR/CWC/CE/EF/Fire Pen/Leech with max SR debuff = 11.8k hit @ 0.35s cast time.
SR/CWC/CE/EF/Fire Pen/Leech with 1 stage SR debuff = 10.2k hit @ 0.35s cast time.
CE/EF/CD/Echo/Empower/Leech = 7k hit @ 0.43s cast time.
CE/EF/CD/Echo/Cold Pen/Leech = 9.9k hit @ 0.43s cast time.

The selfcast Version is using more than just other gems. It's using ligthnih golem for more cast speed, its using fire pen too.

They both do nearly the same dps for experencied and well geared players. For beginners its probably easier with SW/CWC.

Firstly, it can't use fire pen because someone was saying non-fire converted ice storm is doing about the same damage. And if you're saying self cast is able to hit same dps as cwc through things other than gems, then show me numbers. Don't just make claims.

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Astrohawke wrote:

Firstly, it can't use fire pen because someone was saying non-fire converted ice storm is doing about the same damage. And if you're saying self cast is able to hit same dps as cwc through things other than gems, then show me numbers. Don't just make claims.

Don't tell me you didn't even see the old build?

And as someone answered before, with fire conversion we can get both cold and fire damage modifiers to work. So for example jewels like Izaro's turmoil give 50% instead of 25%. Don't make claims by saying "someone was saying".

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Levirael wrote:

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Astrohawke wrote:

Firstly, it can't use fire pen because someone was saying non-fire converted ice storm is doing about the same damage. And if you're saying self cast is able to hit same dps as cwc through things other than gems, then show me numbers. Don't just make claims.

Don't tell me you didn't even see the old build?

And as someone answered before, with fire conversion we can get both cold and fire damage modifiers to work. So for example jewels like Izaro's turmoil give 50% instead of 25%. Don't make claims by saying "someone was saying".

What are you even talking about? You joined halfway through a discussion and don't even know what the discussion was about.

Black_gun said

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so fire conversion offers a lot, but imho its more of a utility gain and less of a dps boost.

To which I responded by saying that fire conversion makes use of SR+CwC much better and that the dps boost was significant compared to self casting.

You then came in and said

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And selfcast without CwC does a little bit of more damage.

Which I refuted as incorrect.

So to break this down for you. I made 2 points throughout this discussion.
1. Fire conversion does more damage than not converting
2. CwC does more damage than self cast

If you don't agree with either of those statements, then feel free to provide numbers to refute it.

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Astrohawke wrote:

Firstly, it can't use fire pen because someone was saying non-fire converted ice storm is doing about the same damage.

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Levirael wrote:

And as someone answered before, with fire conversion we can get both cold and fire damage modifiers to work. So for example jewels like Izaro's turmoil give 50% instead of 25%.

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Astrohawke wrote:

1. Fire conversion does more damage than not converting

I never told you otherwise, in fact you were the one that told me that there was no use in converting since they did the same damage.

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Astrohawke wrote:

2. CwC does more damage than self cast

Though I did got it wrong with Item Rarity, by replacing CwC with Spell Echo SR becomes useless, so if you replace it with another support gem you do get more damage tooltip.

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Levirael wrote:

Of course I didn't do the math because I don't care at all, if anything CwC is better for the clearspeed.

And as I said before, I didn't do the maths so I don't know if the dps is higher or not. Basically by socketing gems I'm getting a higher damage. If it doesn't actually means I'm getting a higher damage then, as I said before, I don't care.

Guys, the difference in DPS between self-cast (Spell Echo + CD) and channeling (SR + CwC) was discussed back in December, you can find it in the posts from the early 2.5 time.

CwC vs SE is a buff (MORE vs LESS damage), SR vs CD is a nerf (something like 30k DPS from SR itself plus 24% fire pen vs 45% MORE mod). Ice Golem vs Lightning Golem is a buff too (get damage instead of speed which is no longer needed with CwC).

But it's not all linear, and a lot depends on the encounter and map mods. Fire Pen can be a very big deal. As well as mobility: being able to stop casting and move at any time. And in some encounters being able to pre-cast 14 Icestorms on the target before starting the fight is a straight up win (hi Izaro, bye Izaro!). And 2 skill points freed up by dropping Deep Thoughts may give you an extra jewel socket, i.e. a sharp jump in damage.

At this point the discussion about pure DPS is academic. Whether it's more or less with CwC vs self-cast, it's not by a lot. The benefits of CwC outweigh it. I've played all 4 classes recently, and found myself hating my previous favorite boss killer, the Inquisitor, for being too clunky. That one class gets a massive casting speed bonus from Ascendancy, so that's the only one that stayed with self-cast Icestorm. But after playing with CwC I just can't stand being stuck in the casting animation anymore.