Stringing on the Kickstarter customer, or Why this game needs to die

Hi

Games change, people change. Thinking back to CB this game has changed mostly for the better and though at times I wonder what GGG is doing Charan is correct when mentioning GGG as a ''multi headed hydra''= NOT all the devs are on the same page, my favorite example of this is with facebreakers; which in turn brings me to the one real guff I have about this game: Nerfing to create balance without giving back.

example:Facebreakers are/were my favorite item because they embodied the ideal of a unique that truly changed your style and was balanced thoughtfully on getting flat phy gear and certain passive nodes. Then along came new uniques that were making FB too uber thus the shadow nerfer swung their hammer and turned it from 800-1000% down to 600-800%. Originally the 1000% was there because by endgame the damage evens out so whomever it is at GGG thought since players would use BOR in congruence with FB it would even out, niche/cookie cutterism fear thought pattern. I NEVER HAVE HAD A BOR so I wouldn't know. Now FB is a joke even more so because the shadow nerfer never bothered to attempt to even the damned item out by simply allowing unarmed to critical, its like they took all the icing off the cake and thougt it was better... another great example is the vaal gems and not being able to be triggered anymore, do these shadow nerfers realize that they are continually leaving a half arsed balance and not thinking outside of the box on how to even things out? example: devourers and the hordes mod for maps. Players complained of devourer mob size GGG lowers mob size, but does not remove devourers from horde choice monster list so players more often then not meet hordes of devourers in maps or even adding cracked ground like d3 did with their version of a devourer in an attempt to even things out, personally though devourer is special in that it should never have made it into the game in its present Nuke lvl whilst everything else operates on rock,paper,scissor models. The only other Nuke lvl creature is: leaping chimeras.

Which makes me wonder does GGG ever test its stuff out better before full production? Prime examples of this would be the mtx's and their constant clipping depending on characters and other combinations of mtx's and when a player messages GGG about this they simply shrug and ''go well it's in the game now players will get annoyed if we change it even if it will make it better.'' example: herald auras and shields, medusa snakes mtx don't remove hair making it look very silly.

If you got ideas just message GGG support for more of a personal connection which I do on a fairly regular basis. Meanwhile game will change some more in act 4 and we will see for better or for worse where it will take us.

PS/ GGG FYI, UP THE BLOODY EXALT DROPS BEEN PLAYING SINCE CB AND HAVE ONLY EVER HAD LESS THEN 10 EXALTS DROP, WE ARE TALKING YEARS NOW GGG OF PLAYING THIS GAME 95% SOLO, MOST OF US OLD PLAYERS DON'T TRADE AND EQUALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE VAULTED TRADE SPAM ECONOMY BUT WOULD LIKE TO CRAFT.

cheers

Why are people acting like them giving GGG money is a 'support donation'? Didn't you all get the MTX points, kiwis, rhoas, unique designs, grandmasters, skins, ect ect?

You didn't donate to the game like an investor, you bought a supporter pack that came with more value than buying points alone. You act like you were an investor in this game and deserve to be heard, you weren't you got a package for your money. Any other expectations are your cross to bear.

"

lethal_papercut wrote:

Why are people acting like them giving GGG money is a 'support donation'? Didn't you all get the MTX points, kiwis, rhoas, unique designs, grandmasters, skins, ect ect?

You didn't donate to the game like an investor, you bought a supporter pack that came with more value than buying points alone. You act like you were an investor in this game and deserve to be heard, you weren't you got a package for your money. Any other expectations are your cross to bear.

You have a somewhat valid support. That being said the game was much smaller back in closed beta\start of open beta where (in closed beta) the only way to play the game was to buy into it (similar, but not the same as kickstarter\early access) They did ask for feedback from players quite often back then, moreso then now. Twas a different time and TBH a different game.

As far as getting other things with packs, your right we do. I have 4k points left after buying all my packs and many stash tabs and other MTX and still don't know how I am ever going to spend 4k points. I have voiced my opinion on the grandmasters map as I believe it failed to deliver what was advertised. Are you suggesting that because I got points and other things from the pack I don't have a right to complain about the map?

As far as the rest of the game is concerned, only diamond unique supporters and grandmasters have paid for anything specifically to be added into the game. All other money is just for whatever GGG wants to spend it on.

"

lethal_papercut wrote:

Why are people acting like them giving GGG money is a 'support donation'? Didn't you all get the MTX points, kiwis, rhoas, unique designs, grandmasters, skins, ect ect?

You didn't donate to the game like an investor, you bought a supporter pack that came with more value than buying points alone. You act like you were an investor in this game and deserve to be heard, you weren't you got a package for your money. Any other expectations are your cross to bear.

Because, like Kickstarter (hence Scrotie's title), GGG was providing incentives for giving them money. That's why the more you give the better the overall deal is. It's not a "buy in bulk" phenomenon where more money = more product. It's GGG saying "we need money to do X, and it's worth it to offer A B and C as incentives to give us money at various thresholds to do X."

Someone might have only given A if nothing changed by giving A over and over. But if B = 2A in price and 2.5A in goods, then many people are more likely to give B. As long as it costs GGG less than .5A to make the add-ons to B, then they come out ahead. And I guarantee you, they came out ahead.

The whole premise of Kickstarter is just that above. GGG used a very similar one (at least in the beginning, I doubt they live on GGGold alone nowadays, but I don't have access to their books).

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

What you guys mean by "disconnect" is that there is nuance in my position. There are things I trust GGG to be good at; there are things I trust GGG to be bad at. Paramount among these things I expect then to fail at is iteration. I think they truly believe, as some of you do, that PoE (1) is the only thing they will ever do.

This is an unrealistic expectation, though, because no publisher's first title is ever their best. After Diablo 1 came Diablo 2, after Neverwinter Nights came Dragon Age Origins, after Demon's Souls came Dark Souls. Iteration, to include the iteration of completely starting over, is a necessary component of further perfecting one's craft.

The unfixible in PoE is already rather exposed. To that I say, let the game die. Start over. If necessary, prod GGG into starting over thorough your actions as a customer.

That's not at all the same as wishing ill on GGG.

If we measure GGG's health by monetary stability and donations, then you are in fact attempting to make them ill.

Maybe with good intentions, an attempt even to draw them to a near dead experience provoking reflection and ways to improve. Other-wise veiled by time , progression and a sense of stability.

Not that i find this likely to happen or that it would even lead to that out-come.

Just an observation that what you are asking from community members is in fact bad for business and could be considered wishing for an illness on GGG as a company.

Undermining stability is a good source for radical change no denying that, i just don't think it is required in this case.

Even more, if we look at what you wrote, how high are your hopes that PoE2 will be any different then PoE1 in fundamental design, other then the obvious different engine and maybe different net-code.

For all we know, they might even make bolder promises and statements based on PoE1 with a better engine.
(that in the end might not prove to become a reality as-well, leading to a similar situation as today with a few less beat horses)

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Archwizard wrote:

The whole premise of Kickstarter is just that above. GGG used a very similar one (at least in the beginning, I doubt they live on GGGold alone nowadays, but I don't have access to their books).

Whatever similarities GGG's business plan may have had to Kickstarter in the days of closed and open beta, they are gone now. Now, GGG presents you a complete & finished product, for free, with the option of giving them financial support in exchange for MTX etc.

You cannot compare a released F2P game with Kickstarter. It's apples and oranges.

I can understand how this might be a bit weird to early supporters (esp. closed beta supporters), but that's just the reality. It's why I never bought a supporter pack in open beta - giving support to an unfinished product is fundamentally different than giving support to a finished one.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Are you suggesting that because I got points and other things from the pack I don't have a right to complain about the map?

No. I am saying that everyone who bought a supporter pack got exactly what they they were told they were going to get, which was the contents of the pack, nowhere did it say "We will make the game you think we are going to make".

GGG have always stated they are making the game they want to play and everyone else is just a long for the ride. If you buy a supporter pack you get the contents advertised and the knowledge that you are supporting GGG in making their game, that is all, it doesn't buy you their time or their attention.

"

lethal_papercut wrote:

it doesn't buy you their time or their attention.

Except the Grandmaster's customization\AI implementation and diamond supporters.

"

Archwizard wrote:

If the kids above us are done throwing spitballs at each other (looking at you Boem and Wretch)....<snip>

Except, obviously, it does still matter. Scrotie made the decision to support back then based on what he was told. The fact that he feels reality doesn't match what he was told is causing him disappointment and perhaps regret regarding his decision. This impacts his future playing and supporting, which affects GGG's bottom line. Ergo, it still matters. How much is a matter of degree, and only time will tell.

And if I told you I was going to do X if you gave me $A, and then did Y, wouldn't you feel like I had mislead you or misused those funds, regardless of how close Y is to X?

As I said in my exceptionally long post, yes - he is entitled to feel that way. Even justified. But it's still not the right way to feel. In the sense of your example - yes, I would be perfectly justified to feel betrayed if you threw away the money or squandered it elsewhere - but my indignation only goes so far because I hadn't formed any sort of binding contract or lease with you or even any sort of verbal agreement at all. A more accurate representation would be if you were sitting there doing X and saying you were doing X, and then I came along and just gave you $A. REGARDLESS how much A is, I have no say nor authority to demand - nor do you have any obligation to keep doing X if you suddenly decide to change and do Y. There's no binding obligation of any kind. It's expectation by association, and - while commonplace in todays world, being how a large amount of our world operates on 'good faith' (albiet from people who are more rigorously watched than GGG's design decisions, though the statement 'who watches the watchers' still applies), it's still wrong - it's enough to get upset over, but really that's all I'd have a right to do. And if I chose to not give you any more $, that's my right. But if you get $B from someone else - then good for you.

The same can be said for GGG's design policy in relation to communal funding.

-------

Another thing to consider is GGG may or may not want to do X - but found out that X is either impractical or unattainable (permanently, or currently) and so were forced to do Y.

Who was it who said never attribute to malice what can be explained by ineptitude?




Sidenote: I doff my hat at you, sir. Your earlier post in this thread was very eloquent.