Stringing on the Kickstarter customer, or Why this game needs to die

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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tackle70 wrote:

The problem I see with the OP - as well as many of Charan's posts - is that there's this implicit assumption (even if unconscious) that being a supporter entitles you to things on the part of GGG's development of the game. It doesn't.

I think it's a lot more fair to say this is the problem the OP acknowledges and is addressing (although I'd include both monetary and forum/essay contributions). That, and that the delusion has negative effects for the deluded. That, and I sympathize with them for feeling such a way (what Salty said, etc).

But seriously, man, I totally agree that, at this point, contributions to steer the game are silly bordering on insane, and focus should be on what the game is, not what we imagine it as. I'm just encouraging the other people who feel like I do to GFTO with me. You want me gone; I want to leave. Win/win.

At least papercut is finally happy.

I don't want you gone Scrotie! We miss you in the nest.

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tackle70 wrote:

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

actually it means thanks with an expectation that the future of the game's vision will stay the same

I feel so bad for everyone who ties expectations to their support of this game. Irrespective of those expectations being met, it's just foolish and misunderstands the whole concept.

Part of what I was alluding to in my post is what the bolded part of Scrotie's quote above and the Salty/Tackle quotes also allude to:

Back in CB the game was clearly being developed with many things evolving pretty damned fast. If you think stuff changes now, try thinking about back then.

CB was also well, closed. Only those people had keys, be it from friends, in a lotto, or from purchasing, were here. It was a much smaller player base with much more intimate involvement of the Devs. On the free weekend that got me hooked, the Devs were on global constantly talking to people about the game and what was going on. It was fantastic.

Threads in suggestions and feedback were much more like this one, where people actually responded to each other with reasoned posts, rather than vitriolic content or ad hominem attacks (though some have appeared here, and CB was by no means a paradise).

So yes, those of us from CB felt a direct connection to the development of the game. As Scrotie said that was both via monetary contributions and via forum/email/chat conversations with GGG and each other.

The reality of OB and the actual ftp universe changed all that. The player base expanded a shitton and GGG is no longer able to be quite as down in the trenches with participation. Expectations upon PoE and GGG change as the people doing the expecting (the player base) change.

So in many ways, what many of us CB folks feel is the loss of a more personal and intimate connection with GGG, a feeling of having a stronger hand (even if not a strong hand back then, it was still stronger then than now) in the direction PoE traveled. It's why I no longer post (or even read really) the Suggestions/Feedback sections of this forum when I used to post all the time there back in CB.

This is why my post was about why I STILL support, even if what I ORIGINALLY supported isn't totally relevant anymore. As (I think, sorry forget to save the quote) MoonYu said, my reasons to support aren't his or Scrotie's. I regard Scrotie's OP as a treatise upon why he originally supported, how he views the direction things have gone and a request for everyone to evaluate why they support, to be sure that expectations match reality.

And there's nothing wrong with that. I respect Scrotie a ton, but I know my own mind on throwing my money at GGG. If he wants to ask everyone else to know their own minds too, where's the harm?

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I'm just encouraging the other people who feel like I do to GFTO with me.

You might want to be careful with this, Obama listens and it smacks of mass-suicide-mongering.

I'm going to chime in and hopefully in a more civil way that Goetz - inform a large portion of you that you're crying in your own milk and look quite pathetic.

I don't know what the game was like way back in closed beta. I didn't hear of it until it was in Open, and didn't actually play it until much later - but I watched. I watched and tracked it's development with curiosity. It's very rare that a game that is funded primarily by community backers blows up in popularity in such a way that PoE has, and I can count on one hand how many of them are multiplayer titles that actually saw the light of day. I never backed the game, I'm broke. But I buy MTX's, because this game earns it's money. I'm not opposed to them selling supporter packs which are basically just asking for handouts - but we have to remember that this is a nobody company out in New Zealand that wanted to make a game and blew up into one of the only 3 ARPG names worth knowing.

Concerns and feedback are valid. PoE's engine sucks, and it shows - the netcode needs some work (whether that alone is enough, we may never know) and performance is a problem. The balancing cycle seems to be a bit of a frantic flailing back and forth until things are stable enough that they are clouded out by the next balance issue, and the influx of new unique items at a steady pace coupled with skills and supports is already invalidating many and simultaneously, occasionally being toxicly OP (see KB + FW)

BUT

With all that said...

This game is functional.
It's reasonably stable, gameplay is remarkably unbuggy given the procedural generation of it all and for the most part is quite functional (nitpick all you want). The itemization and skill customization is extremely well implemented and while in need of refinement, is pretty unique. I disagree with the handling of the damage and difficulty escalation, but let's be fair - it is just a placeholder while more acts and game content is implemented. Despite being released, it's not finished, and the devs have freely admitted it's not finished (though as someone else rightly said, when are games ever nowadays) and the prospect for content down the line is titillating, though I will be the first to say that GGG have a huge amount of hype to satisfy with act 4. I'm not sure if they haven't written themselves into a Watchdog's corner and the hype can EVER be satiated, but we'll see in april-ish.

And then there's this entitled lecture of someone disenfranchised with the product they threw money at...

It's sad. It's really, really sad, but far too common, especially during the kickstarter boom. An unfortunate byproduct of the consumerist age we live in, people feel that because they throw money at something, they've purchased a product and are entitled to a functional product that meets the outlined specifications.

SPOILER: That's a fallacy. I forgot the name of the one it is, but A + B =/= C. I'm just going to call it a logical leap, because that's what it is.

This isn't a consumer product up for purchase - nor is this an investment where you can see a return. You are literally just giving your money to someone because you like their idea. GGG owes you nothing. They don't need to adhere to the promises they set for themselves for whatever reason. You're entitled to expect that, and justified to get angry at it - sure - even throw a tantrum about it. No one has the right to stop you. But all that doesn't change the fact that they are not indebted to you, and have no obligation to follow your whims. Their only obligation is to themselves. To try and make the game they want to make and to actually make the best game they can. But passion alone, a game does not make. They need to make money too. And a wee little studio like theirs with no investment backers (god help us all if they ever get some though, a lovely catch 22) has to scrounge for every last little pennie. Or cent. Or whatever they use over in New Zealand. The point is - just because the game turns into something other than what you envisioned for it is nothing Earth shattering. It's not the end of days. If that's a deal breaker for you - then pack your wallet and go. If you feel so incensed about it, throw GGG an email and voice your concerns there. That makes you a reasonable ex-customer.

Going onto the official forums of the game you gave money freely too, pitching a riot and calling for the death of it because you don't like where it headed? That makes you a prick. Nothing more. You gain nothing. You help nothing. You seek only to destroy that which you feel you can no longer have.

And so help me, if the only good thing that comes out of this unnecessary flaming is that someone get's to tell GGG that they're not complete morons and still have a community that follows them, then so be it. I'll be that person. And if this is how you want to be remembered, "The Ass who Called for the Death of the Company", then frankly the sooner we see the back of you, the sooner we can forget you.

I owe GGG nothing. I've given them very little. But I still give feedback regardless, and I will do my best to defend them against thinly-veiled defametory BS like this. Why? See my sig.

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TikoXi wrote:

I'm going to chime in and hopefully in a more civil way that Goetz - inform a large portion of you that you're crying in your own milk and look quite pathetic.

I did a tl;dr that didn't insult anyone, let alone call them pathetic and you are the more civil one?

I sometimes thinker on what this game could have been if D3 was a success, but i hastily stop that thinking process.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Boem wrote:

I sometimes thinker on what this game could have been if D3 was a success, but i hastily stop that thinking process.

Peace,

-Boem-

I probably wouldn't have played this game if D3 had been something other than a steamy pile of poo.

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TikoXi wrote:

ignorant and rude nonsense

omg are blind or something , its not about what WE think the game was supposed to be, it is about what they TOLD us it was supposed.

The game had a clear path ahead of it , Dont got insulting us when ggg decided to take a detour and never went back


every time some one like you get this wrong an angel dies . stop it.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

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TikoXi wrote:

ignorant and rude nonsense

omg are blind or something , its not about what WE think the game was supposed to be, it is about what they TOLD us it was supposed.


every time some one like you get this wrong an angel dies .

And you completely missed the part where I told you what they told you DOESN'T MATTER ANYMORE.

I hope you don't miss it this time, cause I can't make it any more obvious. I apologise if I buried the message too deep to find before.

im around until act4, that's do or die time. Kickstarter? hell na, im way over the point of giving GGG anymore money. last time I bought a pack they used the funds for their 30 man pvp project. Like, fuck off.

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TikoXi wrote:

if this is how you want to be remembered, "The Ass who Called for the Death of the Company", then frankly the sooner we see the back of you, the sooner we can forget you.

That's not how I'd like to be remembered. At all. That would make me sad. I hope GGG makes several new successful titles and purchases Activision in 20 years.

Now, The Ass Who Called for the Death of the Game? I could live with that one.