Leave trading alone, don't waste resources on it

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goetzjam wrote:

I understand your being facetious with the 22hr thing, but it doesn't really help your point.

What exactly is so terrible about the current system for you, what would you like to see in a new system?

i like face to face trading but we could get something like stash tabs for trading or... i dont know, something that makes trading better.


One noticeboard to search for items in-game. just like poe.xyz but ingame. that would be cool

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

After that, trading needs a huge overhaul, but TONS of threads already exist with great feedback and suggestions on how to fix it. Hell, I've even posted some about it around half a year ago.

Following the quoted link gives us:

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

The reasons D3 failed are legion, but the primary failure of its economy was the existence of the Real Money AH--not the gold AH--along with impossible RNG for anything halfway decent. Thus, all the best items ended up on the RMT AH and would never see the light of the gold AH in most cases, which further inflates their gold value to impossible levels. Even worse, Blizz actively allowed the buying/selling of gold through the RMT AH for awhile. They basically gave the RMT botters the key to the kingdom. Simple solution: DO NOT add a Real Money AH to this game. Just use in-game currencies for it.

Unfortunately, this somehow wide-spread belief falls flat if one checks the historical facts. The best gear in Diablo 3 (on or around November 2012) was on the gold auction house, not the RMAH, and in fact the RMAH had nearly zero economic impact on the game. This is not to say that RMT had no impact on Diablo 3, because its impact was profound and devastating; instead, it's simply pointing out that the real-money market value of in-game gold was significantly lower than the price the RMAH would allow, effectively killing any form of "legitimate" RMT economy and supplanting it completely with third-party gold-sellers, who could and did undercut the RMAH minimum. I believe literally anyone playing D3 at the time and paying the slightest attention to RMT spam in-game would have noticed this trend; for you see, since the RMT industry needs to advertise for customers, its behavior is in fact not all that cryptic after all.

However, when we look into the question of why this was the case, we come across some points which I feel are relevant to the current discussion: how badly does the Path of Exile economy need an overhaul?

The key to understanding Diablo 3's economic failures is in understanding the inexorable link between RM and botting. Botting, an illegitimate activity in virtually every game with an in-game economy, is rendered a relatively moot point until one considers (both "legitimate" and illegitimate) RMT, which transforms it into a hobby for immoral tryhards into a full-blow industry. It is only because of RMT that botting escalates to a scale which is capable of harming or even destroying in-game economies.

RMT's method of destruction is disproportional inflation. The word "disproportional" is key here, because an in-game economy is constantly inflating, because every monster dropping loot is more "money" being printed. However, when it is gear which drops, it is gear values which are inflated, and "currency" values which are correspondingly deflated. In other words, the ratio of drops designated by the game's developers determines how both gear and currency will inflate simultaneously, creating a predictable ratio and equilibrium between the two.

Bots, however, do not farm in the same way which players farm. While a human has an interest in gear while playing, bots almost never do, because a game's currency is a far more attractive focus. The very aspects which make an in-game drop a good currency also make it inherently appealing to botters. Homogeneity means that bots do not have to be programmed for item valuation, since every unit has the same value. Scarcity reinforces the unfair advantage unmanned bots have over human players in regards to time spent farming. Above all, handleability means bots focusing on these items require minimal programming for inventory management and can be left unattended for large periods of time before filling up their inventories. Thus, "currency" items are inevitably the almost single-minded focus of botters, and thus are the defacto in-game item to be exchanged for real money.

The result is that currency enters an in-game economy at a far greater rate than developers intended, while gear is mostly ignored by botters (and thus by RMT), skewing values to devalue currency. The rate of this devaluation depends on design factors of the currency itself, most importantly handleability.

The farming of gear, on the other hand, is almost exclusively the province of actual, flesh-and-blood humans. When considering how human players impact an economy, it's important to imagine a bell curve of progression. A very small number of dedicated gamers will be far ahead of others, dedicating amounts of time to the game which those with non-gaming careers would be hard-pressed to match; similarly, a small number of gamers will be far behind the usual curve, with the vast majority ahead of them in terms of progression.

Thus, when one of the small percentage in the front acquires an epic gear drop they don't need for their characters, they face a very favorable economic situation, because there are very few players on the same level as them farming similar gear, while there are vast numbers of players a step or two behind in the market for such a piece. Since the number of prospective buyers greatly outnumbers the sellers, the item goes to those with the most currency to bid with. However, to the extent which RMT has penetrated an online economy, the more of these items will go to those who have acquired large amounts of currency with their credit card rather than their play time. The best items in the game, despite being farmed legitimately, usually end up in the hands of RMT customers, with the top tier of legitimate players being fed a disproportionate amount of bot-farmed currency as a result.

So bringing it back to D3 briefly: That economy failed because they created a currency item in-game with perfect handleability - no maximum, does not consume stash space, automatic pickup - and then gave it perfect utility - by tying it directly to the most efficient, and essentially only, means of trading in-game gear. It was the combination of "gold" (in the D3 sense) and "auction house" which caused the devastation. As stated earlier, the RMAH was a moot point and didn't contribute to the destruction at all.

Does currency in Path of Exile have some of these problems? Of course. However, Path of Exile's currency items require slightly more valuation (picking up some currencies such as scrolls is a waste of a bot's time) and also consumes inventory space, albeit probably not as much inventory space as currency should consume. The effects of disproportional currency inflation are noticeable, especially in Standard, but are not nearly as overwhelming as they were in Diablo 3, showing that botting has far less of a relative impact. Last but not least, a significant percentage of players actively use a third-party auction house, which shows that tying such an efficient trading system to the game's currencies has so far brought us to where we are now, and that opening such a system up to the more casual majority of the PoE community would be unlikely to have much additional impact, since most RMT customers would already be using the current auction house.

So to answer the core question: I, for one, do not believe trading in Path of Exile is currently broken. It's definitely not perfect, and it would be nice to see some refinements, such as decreased max stack size of Exalts, which could hinder botting impact on the economy, but such problems as they exist are merely flaws, not tragedies.

Good post, but you missed the real point of the link I provided and what that post was really about. The part you quoted was just a piece of the framework for people unfamiliar with the issue to be able to step in and grasp it easily.

However, I made another thread awhile after that one with an actual solution--and this is the one I meant to link in the first place, lol.

Guys, at least wait for the friggin trade overhaul (asynchrous trading, etc.) that is on the way, and after you can post your ideas and whatever. Pretty please? Pretty, pretty please?

right now, there is a good balance of automation and interaction required, without needing to spend too much time on trading rather than playing (if so, you are likely in the minority doing something wrong)

IMO taking interaction away is a negative, and there should be some level of research, effort, patience, interaction and thinking involved in trading.. I think GGG has it right in standing pat. The system is fine, and those willing to accept this and excel in it reap the benefits and get to enjoy an integral side of the game.

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The_Speculator wrote:

right now, there is a good balance of automation and interaction required, without needing to spend too much time on trading rather than playing (if so, you are likely in the minority doing something wrong)

IMO taking interaction away is a negative, and there should be some level of research, effort, patience, interaction and thinking involved in trading.. I think GGG has it right in standing pat. The system is fine, and those willing to accept this and excel in it reap the benefits and get to enjoy an integral side of the game.

Interaction in trading is the worst aspect of it. It's basically a business transaction. Trade goods and be on your way.

Requiring research and patience to trade is also terrible, and frustrating.

The system is not fine. It's far too time-consuming because of the very things you are saying make it good.

I hope the Act 4 patch includes the trade overhaul with it. 'Really curious to know what GGG plans to do with it.

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KillerB wrote:

Guys, at least wait for the friggin trade overhaul (asynchrous trading, etc.) that is on the way, and after you can post your ideas and whatever. Pretty please? Pretty, pretty please?

Meh, it's been 2 years. Patience has limits.

I can't speak for others, but a trading overhaul is something I have been longing for ever since I have started playing PoE. I was really excited when they first announced that they are working on improvements and even more disappointed when they kept delaying it and finally went silent.

Seriously, it's okay when you feel that the trading system is good the way it is. Then you have been lucky for the last years. But don't tell them that a new trading system is a waste of resources because it simply isn't as long as people are anticipating it.

Oh lawdy.

Trading is fine for some people, often people who play a lot. It's frustrating as hell for some. Personally, most days i cbf even booting up Procurement, because I'd rather play. If I had a pop-up saying 'X wants your X for 3c' and I could click 'yep', I would.

Goetz - you made a point earlier in the thread that making trading too efficient would reduce the joy of finding gear and improving your character. You later admitted you'd never found anything particularly amazing and had geared up primarily via trading...

I can't see how it's of benefit to you for the trading process to have been more slow; it certainly doesn't feel of benefit to me.

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davidnn5 wrote:

Goetz - you made a point earlier in the thread that making trading too efficient would reduce the joy of finding gear and improving your character. You later admitted you'd never found anything particularly amazing and had geared up primarily via trading...

Just because I haven't been blessed with having good rng on drops doesn't mean I don't like the system I do. I've found a few things worth something to others and things like alpha howls which I use on at least 1 character every league.

I don't really putforth the effort to setup a shop most of the time I try to make builds that only require 1-2 key uniques (that aren't stupid expensive)

Gearing up with trading is much more rewarding then simply grinding the loot, collect money and buying what you want, its the feel and the interaction.

A good example is someone was pretty desperate for an exalt on the party boards I was curious and asked why. I dont really sell my exalts for lesser currency (unless I need them, aka i dont flip) and he was offering all sorts of stuff to get. He wanted to exalt some boots, long story short he didnt get what he wanted, gave me the boots and was going to quit, luckly for him he added me to friends list and I saw him playing the game the next day, told him i hadn't put away most of the stuff he gave me and asked if he wanted it back as he was playing again, he said yeah.

In the end I got a few uniques I didnt have 2-3 high level\quality gems I wanted and the guy got most of what he gave away to me for "quitting' back. This is the type of story that wouldn't and couldn't happen if you change the trade system. This is only one of a number of people on my friends list where trading has improved my experience with the game greatly. The social aspects of trade is up to the player if they want to do it, if you just wanna make it a boring automated trade then that will be what you get, if you want to make it this adventure of acquiring gear, that on the other hand makes trading worth it.