Leave trading alone, don't waste resources on it

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goetzjam wrote:

@b15h09

Your comments are in line with sanleon, how can GGG being to think about a new system (although I don't personally think its necessary) when the current system is working. If it isn't working for you, why?

Why? It's inefficient, and works against those with time constraints. I don't want to spend 10-20 minutes settting up and updating procurement and 10-20 minutes trading if I'm playing an hour/hour and half in an evening. If I were playing 8+ hours a day, I wouldn't mind so much, as the investment required to make a trade would be a much smaller percentage of my available time.

When the game first released, I traded quite prolifically. I got extremely tired of it, though. The currency was good, but I wasn't actually playing much. I was quite happy when 3-4 months into OB, GGG announced they were working on a real trade system. I'm still awaiting it.

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b15h09 wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

@b15h09

Your comments are in line with sanleon, how can GGG being to think about a new system (although I don't personally think its necessary) when the current system is working. If it isn't working for you, why?

Why? It's inefficient, and works against those with time constraints. I don't want to spend 10-20 minutes setting up and updating procurement and 10-20 minutes trading if I'm playing an hour/hour and half in an evening. If I were playing 8+ hours a day, I wouldn't mind so much, as the investment required to make a trade would be a much smaller percentage of my available time.

When the game first released, I traded quite prolifically. I got extremely tired of it, though. The currency was good, but I wasn't actually playing much. I was quite happy when 3-4 months into OB, GGG announced they were working on a real trade system. I'm still awaiting it.

First of all thanks for the reply, I don't get to see the point of view of people that have much less time then me to play the game.

The inefficiency in the trading system (although its really not that inefficient when you think about it) is what makes the system really unqiue. People compare that X game does it better then Y game all the time with it's automated methods of trading, that is fine, but does every single game have to have the same system you liked in X game?

You even admit that if you did play more the current system works fine or well enough, GGG can't control how much players have time to trade. I guess my next question is if you only have so little time to play the game why really bother with trading at all? I'm not saying don't buy gems or whatever you need, but why do you feel obligated to setup a shop and sell stuff? Whats your goals considering your time constraint?

IIRC GGG had been working on a new system, but then procurement and PoE.trade picked up steam and I think GGG is satisfied with the ease of access for those trades. I think its a slippery sloop on making trading really any easier then it already is, especially if your wanting automation.

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goetzjam wrote:

First of all thanks for the reply, I don't get to see the point of view of people that have much less time then me to play the game.

The inefficiency in the trading system (although its really not that inefficient when you think about it) is what makes the system really unqiue. People compare that X game does it better then Y game all the time with it's automated methods of trading, that is fine, but does every single game have to have the same system you liked in X game?

You even admit that if you did play more the current system works fine or well enough, GGG can't control how much players have time to trade. I guess my next question is if you only have so little time to play the game why really bother with trading at all? I'm not saying don't buy gems or whatever you need, but why do you feel obligated to setup a shop and sell stuff? Whats your goals considering your time constraint?

IIRC GGG had been working on a new system, but then procurement and PoE.trade picked up steam and I think GGG is satisfied with the ease of access for those trades. I think its a slippery sloop on making trading really any easier then it already is, especially if your wanting automation.

Inefficiency of trade in a game in which designs it's loot table around global trade strikes me as bad design, to begin with. A trade system fills that big gaping hole. There's not much I find 'unique' about it. I played many games that had no trade system. But they were also geared towards an individual experience, not a global economic one, so trade wasn't a big deal (d2, for example, felt like a great SP experience, because it was it's primary focus. It might have really rare drops that few would find, but you could get by quite well on the gear you found and beat all the content without ever seeing or interacting with another soul).

What I admit is that if I had more time, I'd know I have an advantage, both in the availability of the loot I have to sell, as well as the time I have to sell it. Of course I would be a proponent of a system like this were I able to utilize it. But that's not my situation. The main reason I feel obligated to set up a shop is that I actually do find some decent stuff from time to time that I really don't need, and I'd like to liquidate that into something I do need for a build I'd like to try. The great shit just doesn't drop. By trading the good shit, you can buy the great shit. If you have the time.

Yes, I want to post an item with a buyout price, and let the transaction take place regardless of my online status. I don't see a slippery slope. I see a system which shows favoritism becoming neutral, which is necessary in a proper free market. The barriers to the market create distorted prices and exasperate wealth inequalities.

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b15h09 wrote:

removed some text

Yes, I want to post an item with a buyout price, and let the transaction take place regardless of my online status. I don't see a slippery slope. I see a system which shows favoritism becoming neutral, which is necessary in a proper free market. The barriers to the market create distorted prices and exasperate wealth inequalities.

This is by FAR the worst way to implement a trading system, when gearing becomes as simple or as easy as get orb drops, buy gear, ect then it really loses that ARPG feeling to it of finding gear, equipping gear and killing monsters for better loot.

Aside from the fact D3's loot system was crap, the ability to purchase gear from other players automatically ruined the trading and acquiring aspect and turned into a spreadsheet simulator.

Unfortunately this game isn't balanced for solo play (mo mf), isn't balanced for 1-2 hours per night in drops. While I understand your frustration that you feel obligated to sell medium items so you can save up and buy the large, this is something everyone almost needs to do.

You want an EZ system because of your time constraint, I want a BETTER game because of my situation. I don't know if this game has more people like you or more people like me, but IIRC GGG specifically stated they were not going to add automated trading or an AH style trading system into the game.

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goetzjam wrote:

You want an EZ system because of your time constraint, I want a BETTER game because of my situation. I don't know if this game has more people like you or more people like me, but IIRC GGG specifically stated they were not going to add automated trading or an AH style trading system into the game.

Really, I just want what they said they'd deliver. Cross forum/game asynchronous trading. That will be enough. Then I'll sell my legacy stuff, get a shavs to go with my CoE, and have a little fun with it :P

And no, D3's problem was almost entirely it's crappy loot. The AH was part of the reason for the crappy loot, but not the problem itself. PoE suffers the same problem of shitty loot for the sake of a global economy, but at least the itemization is better. So long as the stay away from the RMAH, I doubt it would be any worse than WoW or EVE AH's, which I always thought to be stellar implementations.

EDIT: and just to be clear, gearing is as simple as farming the chaos recipe, going to the auction listing site poe.trade, and buying your gear. Or listing stuff via poe.trade, collecting orbs during your playtime, and buying your gear. There's nothing really novel here.

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b15h09 wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

You want an EZ system because of your time constraint, I want a BETTER game because of my situation. I don't know if this game has more people like you or more people like me, but IIRC GGG specifically stated they were not going to add automated trading or an AH style trading system into the game.

Really, I just want what they said they'd deliver. Cross forum/game asynchronous trading. That will be enough. Then I'll sell my legacy stuff, get a shavs to go with my CoE, and have a little fun with it :P

And no, D3's problem was almost entirely it's crappy loot. The AH was part of the reason for the crappy loot, but not the problem itself. PoE suffers the same problem of shitty loot for the sake of a global economy, but at least the itemization is better. So long as the stay away from the RMAH, I doubt it would be any worse than WoW or EVE AH's, which I always thought to be stellar implementations.

Do you have a forum thread for stuff to sell PM me it or post it here idc, maybe I can help you get that shavs (by buying your gear) I assume you play in standard and not regular HC?

WoW and Eve are not ARPG games, but rather MMORPG's where the games focus aren't really the game, the loot aspect is similar but an automatic form of trading I don't think would be good for PoE.

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goetzjam wrote:

Do you have a forum thread for stuff to sell PM me it or post it here idc, maybe I can help you get that shavs (by buying your gear) I assume you play in standard and not regular HC?

WoW and Eve are not ARPG games, but rather MMORPG's where the games focus aren't really the game, the loot aspect is similar but an automatic form of trading I don't think would be good for PoE.

No, no thread. That's the thing about legacies, they don't really drop in value. I'm sure I'm going to burn out on this game yet again before they get their trade system out the door. When they do implement it, and I'm ready for another run, I may try to sell them for a bit more than their current value. Maybe there'll be a nice facebreaker melee buff in the meantime to make my 950ish sets a bit more valuable. :P Appreciate the offer, though.

Still, I think this game's loot hunt is fucking atrocious. I'm not sure why you defend it. It's not a strong draw for the game to me. You farm orbs, you buy gear. That's the game. The fun is putting stuff together after you buy it and making something work that seems greater than the sum of it's parts. They did get that part of the MtG inspired design correct.

Agreed, they're MMORPG's, and this is a massively multiplayer online economic centered six player instance action role playing game, or something like that. We can disagree on whether an AH would be a good fit, but I still contend it's a big gaping hole in a part of the game design. "Global drop economy centric, no global economy facilitation." Derp.

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No, no thread. That's the thing about legacies, they don't really drop in value. I'm sure I'm going to burn out on this game yet again before they get their trade system out the door. When they do implement it, and I'm ready for another run, I may try to sell them for a bit more than their current value. Maybe there'll be a nice facebreaker melee buff in the meantime to make my 950ish sets a bit more valuable. :P Appreciate the offer, though.

I know legacys are better then non obviously the issue with certain ones is while the market price dictates that legacies don't change much, the do change. For example that pair of facebreakers is worth 4-5ex considering the differences between non legacy and legacy that is worth less then you would think.

So unless you are willing to undercut the MSRP (essentially) then they wouldn't sell. An AH or automated trading forces lower end stuff to be even cheaper and higher end stuff to be even more expensive.

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Still, I think this game's loot hunt is fucking atrocious. I'm not sure why you defend it. It's not a strong draw for the game to me. You farm orbs, you buy gear. That's the game. The fun is putting stuff together after you buy it and making something work that seems greater than the sum of it's parts. They did get that part of the MtG inspired design correct.

If you knew my luck on loot drops that statement really hurts. Best item i've ever found was an MF flask in ambush, I actually found 2! Aside from that the largest drop was astramentis when i was doing piety runs (not from her on the way to her) You don't farm orbs to buy gear, you farm loot to sell for orbs to buy gear and occasionally you will get what you want to drop. Is the system perfect, probably not but it DOES work. I think the worst part about looting is playing with MF and without, I love my mjolner character, but I can't stack MF (I have like 1 ring slot I can use) and my drops are relatively bad. Even if its raining shitty uniques at least it gets me excited for a split second.

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Agreed, they're MMORPG's, and this is a massively multiplayer online economic centered six player instance action role playing game, or something like that. We can disagree on whether an AH would be a good fit, but I still contend it's a big gaping hole in a part of the game design. "Global drop economy centric, no global economy facilitation." Derp.

You make a point about that I think the forums was suppose to be the means of the globalness with shops and stuff, paired with procurment and trade it isn't that bad, just need that offline forum trade 1 off sell thing added.

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The_Speculator wrote:

The trading system is fine as it is, there is no need to waste resources to eliminate a little extra inconvenience (aka effort) for a mass overhaul on something that is performing adequately and isnt broken.

Continue to devote the majority of resources on on content, innovation and pressing issues that desperately and clearly need fixes and improvements such as optimization and performance.

+1

Accepting a status quo leads to stagnation.

3 acts are fine, don't waste any ressources on expanding the story.