Leave trading alone, don't waste resources on it
" I don't want trading to be harder then it is, simply that i understand why such people view trading as easily as it is now as overall bad for the game. Gear progression, finding items, ect all overall mean less when you just sell stuff you don't want or need and buy what you want. The current system provides just enough of an inconvenience to make gear acquisition worthy. If they added an ingame solution similar to what we have, would it require both players to be online as well? Would it provide automated trading, the automation is what people fighting against a new system don't want. @osesek Except we aren't game designers GGG is, we are simply supporting the system they have designed. The system can have improvements without hurting the design, of course you would know this if you read the thread, but then again who reads the thread before replying. https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285
FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF. | |
" No, it isn't. Making top tier raid items tradeable would change the whole metagame in WoW. The outrage would certainly be interesting. I also recommend less philosphy 101 ('muh fallacies!') and more economy 101 :) GGG banning all political discussion shortly after getting acquired by China is a weird coincidence.
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I fully agree with the op, the third party programms poe.trade and procurement are enough to comfortably obtain the items you need or to sell your stuff. The only annoying aspect of this trading situation is the need to alt + tab out of the game, however this is easily be dealt with by accepting the fact that there is no other way.
But what i really do want to stress out is that it should be mentioned somewhere in-game that you have to take advantage of these third party tools to succeed in playing competitively. I believe that it shouldnt be mentioned at the beginning of the game because it makes poe look like crap if a message pop up like: "Even though path of exile is centered around trading, we do not have the ressources and or are unwilling to implement proper trading tools, as a result the comunity has created aforementioned tools to simplify trading these are called "procurement" and "poe.trade" check them out if you are interested in playing the game as intended". However, i think that this message or a similar one should pop up as soon as the first character managed to reach the merciless difficulty because this achievement implies that the person is willing to put up with constant desync, not optimised gameplay and graphics that could be from a 2004 game and therefor he/she/it is most likely not reluctant to also use third party programs. |
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" Exactly. The problem isn't the current system itself, it's the fact that it's 3rd party. Just do the same damn thing with an ingame interface and that'd be enough. GGG banning all political discussion shortly after getting acquired by China is a weird coincidence.
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@van: GGG should not, and likely cannot, sponsor third party resources in game, for liability purposes. They cannot control the content on those sites, which disempowers their capacity to maintain a safe and secure service.
On the other hand, a sticky thread prefaced with a disclaimer, could be mentioned in one of the loading screen texts. "There are many useful third party resources at your disposal. Read about them at /forum/view-thread/#######" Devolving Wilds
Land “T, Sacrifice Devolving Wilds: Search your library for a basic land card and reveal it. Then shuffle your library.” |
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" You attempted to reconstruct the problem into one that is easier to defeat--straw man fallacy. There is no need to engage in the argument with you until you give up this practice. When you want to talk economics, do so. If your argument is sound and reasonably free of errors like the previous one, then we can have a conversation about it. @Goetzjam Inconvenience does not add any health to the trade system or the economy. If you fear gear being too easy to get, you need to remember that in order to buy something in this way you must first have currency. TO do that you must farm it or sell your own items. It's even ground for most players, and the very best gear will be expensive due to supply and demand--as it is now. Having in game support for a trade system that includes a search function won't harm the game in the least. As for buyouts, this is simply an asking price. Those who want to haggle it down, may try. Others (such as myself) hate the haggling process, and will simply buy/sell items at those prices. Considering this is already the case with poe.trade, I see no grounds for you to oppose an in-game version of the same thing. |
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" I suspect this is the true motivation for arguing against a convenient in-game trade system that includes a search function and asynchronous transactions. |
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" Actually inconvenience does add health to trade system and economy. Take for example a player like yourself, you can't be bothered to use the system we have today to sell items (at least that is what it soumds like) If a system was added in game that made it even easier to list items then it already is (which is really easy just takes 5-10 min of your item the first time and a couple min everytime you want to update) If it was as simple as selecting an item, dropping it into a box and putting a b\o or starting offer on it MORE people would sell items, that makes rare items of low-medium value decrease in value. See the problem is you only think about the positives of adding such a system, not the negatives. So right now the system actually rewards those players that a) spend a few min to list their items b) plays the game for a good period of time (so they are online to do trades) You are still removing the social aspect of trading by the system you are proposing. Again, this game already has so many issues with lacking social interaction, would hate to see it get removed just to make the system easier. There was a point in time where this game wasn't just buying all your gear, people used to actually just use what they found and traded very rarely, I understand that has long passed, but we saw some interesting builds when players didn't feel they were forced to sell gear just to buy gear later. The problem as stated many times here before is that automatic trading overall will not help PoE, it cheapens the looting experience significantly. Even if D3 had a shitty drop system and terrible real money AH, it still had an AH in an ARPG game and it was REMOVED FROM THE GAME, if anything that is as much of proof that an AH has no place in an ARPG game. Again, this is a principle idea that GGG stated long ago, no AH\automated trading, no getting to level 100 easy, ect. Beating a dead horse really at this point. Again, I hope some QoL things will improve and maybe the ability to create a shop\search\list items in game, but no automatic trading, ever. I rather GGG work on pretty much any other aspect in the game rather then adding this in game, as we already have the tools to search and sell items thru the forums. https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285
FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF. | |
" If you think "easier access" means clearing content is easier, this doesn't hold true in high levels. For most builds, each tier of mapping is a type of "gear check" to make sure you have enough damage and defenses. Those items you claim would lose value would not be good enough for this. More people selling items is easily counteracted by more people buying them. Items decreasing in value isn't inherently a bad thing either, because people will only sell what they think is worth their time to. This will be different for each person. The best items will still demand a higher price. The market would actually be healthier for having more competition and having it readily visible instead of hiding behind a web site. " People can still try to haggle/barter if they want, but saying the current system includes "social interaction" is an extreme leap in logic, and very tenuous ground to base an argument on. This is how most trades go with the current system: Player A: "wtb {item}" Player B: "my ho" Player A: "tft" How is this worth the cost of a good trade system? These abbreviated "grunts" are that precious to you? " There was a point early in every game's lifetime where these exact things happen. As it matures, the game evolves into something a little different. With games where economy is an intended feature, you will find that nobody needs that economy until the player base has "settled in" and established common parameters about item valuation, popular character builds, and effective leveling/farming techniques. These are all factors in how the economy is shaped. There was also a point in this game where builds were more OP, end game content was easier (and less of it), and popular builds didn't need the stronger items that are commonly traded these days. Arguing from this point of view is like saying England should use the same economic and political systems as they did in the 1200s. Seems pretty backward. " 1. It isn't automatic trading that does that. Trading itself does. The game's economy has shifted several times trying to adjust to it, and it will do so several more. It's a normal, natural part of economy-based, loot-driven games. There's nothing about an in-game trading system that would cheapen it anymore than poe.trade does. 2. Using D3 for your evidence is laughable for a number of reasons. Here are some of them: a) Blizz was straight up greedy about it. If it didn't have the RMAH, the game may have had a chance. b) They didn't do anything about the bots, and that's part of why their AH got out of control. As we established earlier, poe's currency system was designed to be more resilient to those things. c) Just because X didn't work, doesn't mean Y and Z cannot. D3 was one game that attempted to use an AH in an ARPG. There will be more. d) Removing the AH was a mistake, and I was among many players who quit for that reason above all the others (of which, there were MANY). I did try the game for a month or so after their big "loot patch," but all they did was make the game even easier than before trading by handing you free uniques every fight (obvious exaggeration, but the point is valid). I could write pages and pages about how your comparison of poe to D3 is completely off the mark, and the real reasons D3 was so terrible, but this point all ends in one fact: D3 wasn't a failure in my eyes because of trade, but because their game vision (and greed) was so far removed from what the players wanted the game to be; the lack of good trade system in poe is one area where GGG is failing us players. 3. I don't care if GGG said Christianity was the one true religion. They are not above criticism, and neither are their decisions. Repeat your "dead horse" argument all you like. It doesn't change the facts. They must review their stance from time to time to see if it is still appropriate--and my argument is that it is not. " We know where you stand on the issue, and we all would like QoL improvements. I even said that when I start playing intensely again I would probably end up having to use this ham-fisted, monkey-made nonsense of 3rd party tools and web site. In the mean time, I will continue to advocate for a better trade system--whether it's an actual AH or just some in-between version. Whatever system it eventually becomes, it needs to be based in the game. |
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" Level to 85 without buying a single item, then level to 85 buying whatever you want to help make leveling easier. This statement that having easier access to gear doesn't make the game easier is incorrect, it does. " Supply>demand for most of these items, your essentally going for force items down 1-2 tiers by allowing the market to easily hold more items. You seem to think the "market" is overall medium for goods, no the market I am referring to is the ability to sell regular items that you could now. As for people only selling what they think was worthy, I mean almost everything is going to be worth slapping into a box and setting a price, anywhere from 1 alch\fuse up. If you played D3 when it first came out you would understand this, but again I don't know your past. " They could try, but as you've made it pretty clear automation is supiorier when it comes to profit, so most players won't be bothered to do or try it anymore. " The system we have now is good, again you aren't entitled to complain or even give the feedback you have given considering your neglect to use it. I've also stated in the past that is not how a good amount of my trades occur, most currency trades are that way, but if someone is buying an item from me, I try to ask them about their build, ect. Again i've already stated what the social aspect of trading will lose. You make it as social as you want it to be.
Spoiler
There was a point early in every game's lifetime where these exact things happen. As it matures, the game evolves into something a little different. With games where economy is an intended feature, you will find that nobody needs that economy until the player base has "settled in" and established common parameters about item valuation, popular character builds, and effective leveling/farming techniques. These are all factors in how the economy is shaped.
There was also a point in this game where builds were more OP, end game content was easier (and less of it), and popular builds didn't need the stronger items that are commonly traded these days. Arguing from this point of view is like saying England should use the same economic and political systems as they did in the 1200s. Seems pretty backward. It was rather a statement then a point, however here is the point. Gear acquisition from trading currently is easier then GGG ever wanted it to be, so why do you think GGG would spend time making it even easier by adding automation and ingame system? " With automation yes, again this is evident of the D3 AH. Would you bother to craft a leveling weapon in PoE or do the option quest for regret or do any work in order to gain what you want, or just spend currency you easily got from selling something or found. This system you are purposing is NOT what GGG had in mind when they created this game. " EVEN without the RMAH, most of the higher value items sold in the gold AH. As more and more loot got added the economy got worst and worst. While poe's economy might better withstand such a system, it still will fail to provide a better experience in the long run by providing automatic trading system. ROFL removing the AH wasn't a mistake, making every single unqiue and set item (and making those the best) was D3's mistake. But because they couldn't profit off of such a system they removed it entirely. I say let other ARPG games do an AH, but not this game, not my precious PoE. This is a principle, again until you understand that and that it shouldn't change, you will not ever understand my point. " I could write pages and pages about how much GGG has already changed from some of the core principles they established long ago, but there is already a long thread about longtime supporters being unhappy with the direction players like yourself are trying to force GGG to go. This game is GGG's game, not yours, they are creating\created a game based off of the hardcore ARPG D2 times and sharing it with us, not some crowd funded early access\kickstarter game where you pay for any right to shape the game. " And my argument is that it is fine, along with many others in this thread. I'd love to hear what other people think on this, but alas I must keep replying to you as you seem to be spreading tainted information to prove your point. " Keep calling the system names, you refuse to accept the fact that many many players use the system. You only make your points look that much worst when you not only refuse to use the system (for over a year as you said) but also call it a bunch of names. If GGG wanted a system to be based in the game they could have done so, alas they choose to to do so to make acquiring gear from trading a little easier then D2, but much harder then an AH. But again you can't be bothered to even accept the system a little bit, but you have to be one of the most vocal people in this thread when you can't possible be educated enough to know the current system to give good enough feedback. https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285
FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF. |
