Leave trading alone, don't waste resources on it

I already spoke of the advantages of not having an in-game "poe.trade":
1. less alt-tabbing = more immersive gameplay
2. more accessible to new players and those who don't do in-depth web searches on games they play
3. zero concern if poe.trade is ever taken over by RMT site

Disadvantage of in-game poe.trade are:
1. costs time and money which GGG doesn't need to spend

That's it. Stop making this shit so complicated.

The economy isn't even mentioned above. Because it would be minimally effected, if at all.

Goetz, again your arguments fall into ad hominem, circular logic, straw man, No True Scotsman, and "no u" statements. You resist change because you fear it--not because of its merits. You claim otherwise, but it is evident in your posts for all to see. Yours is the emotional appeal, and your "if/then" scenarios you try to provide as argument/evidence have all been speculation, or based off one attempt (so far) that has failed (D3).

You can stop trying to say, "This is GGG's game," (when you really mean it's yours alone) and you are the one that refuses to accept that the game belongs to the players, because without them you have no game. If all the devs at GGG thought the way you do, Goetz, this game would have bit the dust before it ever got past Beta. It needs players for income, to stay alive.

You try make it sound like I'm somehow in the minority, but I laugh, because every day that I play, in any global chat channel I watch, I see tons of arguments about this very thing:

"This game needs AH"
"Where's the AH"
"This game's trading sucks"
"Would rather play self found" (and many do)
"When are they adding a trade system?"
etc, etc, etc

One last thing, since you insist on harping on this point as if it's even slightly relevant.

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The system we have now is good, again you aren't entitled to complain or even give the feedback you have given considering your neglect to use it. I've also stated in the past that is not how a good amount of my trades occur, most currency trades are that way, but if someone is buying an item from me, I try to ask them about their build, ect. Again i've already stated what the social aspect of trading will lose. You make it as social as you want it to be.

Just because I don't use it, doesn't mean I don't understand how it works. I have every right to complain about it--and the lack of in-game support for it or something like it. Just because I'd rather drive to work than ride a bike, doesn't mean I can't talk about how riding a bike is the inferior option: takes longer, subjects you to weather, easier for people to interfere with you getting to work, etc. The problem here isn't that you want to ride a bike. It's that you want to force everyone else to instead of letting us drive our cars.

Ultimately, this is yet another attempt at ad hominem, and shows a complete lack of legitimate basis for your own arguments.

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Goetz, again your arguments fall into ad hominem, circular logic, straw man, No True Scotsman, and "no u" statements. You resist change because you fear it--not because of its merits. You claim otherwise, but it is evident in your posts for all to see. Yours is the emotional appeal, and your "if/then" scenarios you try to provide as argument/evidence have all been speculation, or based off one attempt (so far) that has failed (D3).

If my argument fall into a circular logic so does yours, nothing you present has any merit at all because you simple refuse to use the system to even provide feedback on it. Using past examples of games, like D3 to show how an AH is a terrible, terrible thing in an ARPG. I don't resist change because I fear it or don't have merits, I resist such a change like this BECAUSE IT AFFECTS MULTIPLE ASPECTS OF THE GAME AND WILL OVERALL HAVE MORE NEGATIVE IMPACT THEN POSITIVE.

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You can stop trying to say, "This is GGG's game," (when you really mean it's yours alone) and you are the one that refuses to accept that the game belongs to the players, because without them you have no game. If all the devs at GGG thought the way you do, Goetz, this game would have bit the dust before it ever got past Beta. It needs players for income, to stay alive.

It is not my game, I pay to support it, but again this isn't a kickstarter campaign or some early access game, this is GGG's game. PoE needs players that is for sure, but quality player over self entitled brats that want everything handed to them or the developer to change everything to meet their goals they don't need. If GGG ever does go to that model where they change the game just to appeal to a larger base, but at the same time go against a principle they established long ago (and got supporters from it) then they will have to find a way to sustain off the masses that don't overall support the game financially.

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You try make it sound like I'm somehow in the minority, but I laugh, because every day that I play, in any global chat channel I watch, I see tons of arguments about this very thing:

"This game needs AH"
"Where's the AH"
"This game's trading sucks"
"Would rather play self found" (and many do)
"When are they adding a trade system?"
etc, etc, etc

Those players, just like yourself more then likely refuse to use the system present AND want everything handed to them. They don't want to do anything to gain items, currency, ect in the game they want it EZ. That isn't PoE, it hasn't been and it won't ever be. Global chat in this game is literally cancer, go to global 1 and talk shit about D3, everyone will agree the game is shit. Truth of the matter is D3 actually does a better job catering to players like yourself that dislike so many aspects of the game, THEY DO CHANGE FOR THE MASSES, whereas PoE\GGG does not.

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Just because I don't use it, doesn't mean I don't understand how it works. I have every right to complain about it--and the lack of in-game support for it or something like it. Just because I'd rather drive to work than ride a bike, doesn't mean I can't talk about how riding a bike is the inferior option: takes longer, subjects you to weather, easier for people to interfere with you getting to work, etc. The problem here isn't that you want to ride a bike. It's that you want to force everyone else to instead of letting us drive our cars.

You have no right to complain about a system you won't use. At this point you are just embarrassing yourself thinking you do. If you tried it you would understand the only difference of what you are asking for and what we have is automation, something GGG won't do ever. Please by all means prove me wrong, but you haven't added anything new to this discussion in a very very long time.

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Ultimately, this is yet another attempt at ad hominem, and shows a complete lack of legitimate basis for your own arguments.

I've listed many reasons why both the current system is fine (with hopefully some small QoL features) and why automation is a BAD BAD THING. Hell I even support a very limited one off trade system integrated into the forums for those "special" items you can't seem to get when both players are online, of course this system would need to be very limited otherwise it would become an automated trading system.

We should both agree to disagree on eachothers position and only respond to others that post, of course if you try to discredit my position or statements, I will have no choice but to respond. Simply state your position, thoughts, ect and move on. This thread does NOT need to be 40 pages long. Of course if we knew what was coming (if anything in Act4) we could actually discuss something new.

Another "no u" post. This is getting boring.

I assume when someone says there was a time that people just worked with what they got and trades were rare, they must be talking about back in CB, where the difficulty was low, the drops where generous, and trades took place by 2 parties throwing their items to be traded on the ground and hoping a misclick didn't screw them.

Because it was all trading, all day long, from day one of OB.

I feel like addressing the whole "rip off newbs" issue.

The market consensus price on an item will always be "common knowledge." Not "should be," but "will be." In Diablo 2, you had price guides on trading forums listing what was worth how many high runes on which server. In Path of Exile we have poe.trade. There will always be a resource for community consensus regarding market value, and anyone who doesn't access said resource will always be considered an ignorant "noob," etc.

Fighting this is futile. Price guides will always exist. You cannot un-exist them.

Thus, I am against efforts to try to conceal such price guides from any segment of the trading population. They should have the ability to know what the consensus value is.

HOWEVER

This doesn't mean we want everyone actually going by this consensus value. We want deviation. Without deviation, the economy becomes boring, because a particular item always trades for the same value. Boring is bad. Flipping - assuming it is between two players with access to the same information - is good. I am all for trading as a skill game, so long as that skill is in-game and not a matter of access to pricing resources.

Thus, we want a system wherein, given valid information on the consensus value of an item, players have maximum motivation to disagree with that consensus. I am not talking ignorance here, but true informed dissent.

In order to create such an environment, there is but one watchword: balance. Balance builds against each other and it is no longer clear which are strongest - there can be valid disagreement with the consensus. Balance uniques against each other. Balance rare affixes so it isn't clear which 3 prefixes are best. Balance uniques against rares. Highlight differences, so the various contenders for the best answer feel different.

The economy is the itemization. If you want to know what is imbalanced with PoE itemization right now, just look to the economy. It tells you. Just look for the places where no one disagrees.

The more those weak spots in itemization are fixed, the more balanced and vibrant trading will become.

I tend to agree, Scrotie. Even in games that have a fixed AH, price for any given item tend to fluctuate. Every can see (in game) what an item is "worth" and can make their trade decisions just by looking it up on said AH. I want to also point out that the failure to have dissent regarding which stats are best was another reason D3's economy crashed. Item balance and build balance need to be well-managed or the economy is meaningless anyway.

And to quickly address the one single thing Goetz said that might have held any merit, easier access to items doesn't make the game easier. It makes leveling easier. End game is more or less the same regardless of economic influence. He said himself the game doesn't start until 85, so I'm not why he would be against something that seems to allow him to "start the game" with alternate characters more easily, except for his desire for exclusivity--which does more harm than good in this case.

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

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Xavderion wrote:

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

You're right. They aren't comparable. WoW has a good trade system. Whether items are bound or not is entirely irrelevant, but cool attempt at straw man, bruh.

No, it isn't. Making top tier raid items tradeable would change the whole metagame in WoW. The outrage would certainly be interesting. I also recommend less philosphy 101 ('muh fallacies!') and more economy 101 :)

You attempted to reconstruct the problem into one that is easier to defeat--straw man fallacy.

There is no need to engage in the argument with you until you give up this practice. When you want to talk economics, do so. If your argument is sound and reasonably free of errors like the previous one, then we can have a conversation about it.

U wot m8? He said WoW has an AH so PoE can have one too. That's stupid because of the aforementioned reason. Do you want to argue that? Or do you want to see fallacies where there aren't any so you don't have to argue my point? :3

Having an AH and having bound items are different arguments, and you're trying to bring the drawbacks of the latter into the argument to weaken the former. It isn't relevant because poe doesn't have to include bound items to have an AH.

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AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

Having an AH and having bound items are different arguments, and you're trying to bring the drawbacks of the latter into the argument to weaken the former. It isn't relevant because poe doesn't have to include bound items to have an AH.

No they aren't, it's one single argument ('AH won't work in PoE as in WoW because the itemization is different due to no item binding'). It's relevant for that argument, obviously.