Leave trading alone, don't waste resources on it

"

AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

"

Convince another game's player base to use a system like this when an AH already exists.

I don't know how you think d2jsp = in-game AH, but it's not. What we have now is closer to d2jsp, and the only difference is that this has a little more support via Procurement.

Reread your question. Many of the games listed on jsp have AHs yet people still use jsp. It's an answer to your exact question that you went out of your way to bold as if it was hard to answer.

People will stick to whatever is habit and easiest to use. I promise you people will still use poe.trade if GGG puts in an official trading system unless poe.trade can't access the information the trading system contains, which I doubt that will be likely as GGG said they want to make offline trading happen so I imagine that info will be obtained similarly to how it currently is.

Also we have to accept the possiblity of GGG's trade system not being as good or functional as poe.trade making poe.trade the better option to find items. I mean GGG said they aren't doing a b/o system while poe.trade allows that. GGG's system might only be used for trading with offline people rather than fully functional and self contained.

Kinda dumb to think that no one would bother to use a 3rd party system when almost every game now has 3rd party website and programs people use. It's a part of modern gaming to look up apps to use with your favorite games.

"

Moosifer wrote:

"

AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

"

Convince another game's player base to use a system like this when an AH already exists.

I don't know how you think d2jsp = in-game AH, but it's not. What we have now is closer to d2jsp, and the only difference is that this has a little more support via Procurement.

Reread your question. Many of the games listed on jsp have AHs yet people still use jsp. It's an answer to your exact question that you went out of your way to bold as if it was hard to answer.

People will stick to whatever is habit and easiest to use. I promise you people will still use poe.trade if GGG puts in an official trading system unless poe.trade can't access the information the trading system contains, which I doubt that will be likely as GGG said they want to make offline trading happen so I imagine that info will be obtained similarly to how it currently is.

Also we have to accept the possiblity of GGG's trade system not being as good or functional as poe.trade making poe.trade the better option to find items. I mean GGG said they aren't doing a b/o system while poe.trade allows that. GGG's system might only be used for trading with offline people rather than fully functional and self contained.

Kinda dumb to think that no one would bother to use a 3rd party system when almost every game now has 3rd party website and programs people use. It's a part of modern gaming to look up apps to use with your favorite games.

This is probably the best answer I've ever seen from you, so I have two questions for you.

1. I can't seem to find the non-D2 jsp site(s), which may say something about them, so can you provide a link to that list you referred to?

2. Do you think their existence implies acceptance? Just because people can trade on those web sites, do you really think that's how most trading is done when the AH works fine? For that matter, you failed to mention what games those were. Do those AHs function properly?

The only scenario I see using those apps is when you can't be at your computer to game but still want to facilitate the trade, and that's a legitimate reason to use such a thing. However, I can't envision using those over an in-game trading service (AH) when I am able to play. It's inconvenient and backward.

@Goetzjam

I will always want an AH over 3rd party stuff, and it's possible I will return to using poe.trade and Procurement at some point simply because it is the closest thing we currently have. I hate to do so for the many reasons already discussed. However, the primary things preventing me from doing so currently are twofold:

1. It's getting near the end of this temp league, as far as I can tell.

2. I'm not currently playing intensely enough to need to trade much. I maybe buy or sell 2-3 things a day, at most, because I'm more just goofing around with different build ideas and trying certain skill gem combinations out. There's no incentive to worry about getting all "hard-core" near the end of a temp league.

Maybe when Act 4 comes out, if I get really into it again, I'll resort to dealing with the hassle in order to progress more quickly. I just find it highly masochistic and sociopathic that you would prefer to use an inferior system, and require the same of others, when a better alternative is apparent. You can try to treat GGG as omnipotent gods all you want, but they make mistakes, and this is one of them.

"

I will always want an AH over 3rd party stuff, and it's possible I will return to using poe.trade and Procurement at some point simply because it is the closest thing we currently have. I hate to do so for the many reasons already discussed. However, the primary things preventing me from doing so currently are twofold:

"

1. It's getting near the end of this temp league, as far as I can tell.

Still at least 2 months left so basically 1/2 way.

"

2. I'm not currently playing intensely enough to need to trade much. I maybe buy or sell 2-3 things a day, at most, because I'm more just goofing around with different build ideas and trying certain skill gem combinations out. There's no incentive to worry about getting all "hard-core" near the end of a temp league.

So wait you don't need to trade, but you are so compelled to complain about the current system to not even be bothered to use it, yet be one of the most vocal people wanting it changed.

"

Maybe when Act 4 comes out, if I get really into it again, I'll resort to dealing with the hassle in order to progress more quickly. I just find it highly masochistic and sociopathic that you would prefer to use an inferior system, and require the same of others, when a better alternative is apparent. You can try to treat GGG as omnipotent gods all you want, but they make mistakes, and this is one of them.

I've already explained many times why this "inferior" system is better. For the life of me I can't understand why everyone wants every game to be the same exact thing, PoE is unique and fun and for the most part the trade system preforms well. To say its trade system is a failure or not up to par because it relies on 3rd party site\app is just asinine, go play any other game that doesn't require some 3rd party to do SOMETHING in another game, the games you've mentioned previously are MMORPG games, not online ARPG games, we've all seen how shitty the game turns when everyone can list items on an AH easily and without risk\investment\care, that is the reason I fight against such a system.

In addition your AH would go against a core principle that GGG established long ago, which is NO automatic trading, when the D3 AH was shut down there were discussions about whether or not it would be a good idea to add something like that in PoE, but if D3, Blizzard of all companies can't make it fair and work for everyone, how can a small indie company like GGG make it work? How can they prevent bots from ruling it, how can they negate all the downsides of such a system?

You only mention other games and the positives, you completely neglect all the negatives of such system. At the same time your 2 flaws with PoE's trade system are A) 3rd party supplement the forums (which you can list a good number of items, without using procurement and B) you can't do it in-game, in this day and age if you don't have a PC capable of alt tabbing out or use steam overlay for simple searches, then PoE probably doesn't preform well for you anyway.

I believe I challenged you to use the current system first. In addition I know I can't convince another game base to use our system, but that doesn't reflect our system, it reflects the fact that most people don't like change. You seem to be one of them, considering you won't change your habit of using an EZ system, instead you complain, again about a system you admit to not use for over a year. Besides there isn't a comparable game for me to even try and convince every game you mentioned is an MMO, while they have similar elements, they aren't close enough to compare.

You've only repeated your previous arguments without adding anything persuasive, and I've already explained my position. You don't have to agree, but to act like this system is somehow better is outright silly--that's why I fight against it.

As for your precious GGGods' principles, they are flawed. Simple as that. There is nothing inherently wrong with automated trading, and trying to use D3 as an example is much like wondering why a cheese grater can't be used as a raft. D3 didn't fail because it had an AH; it failed because it had a Real Money AH. There's an enormous difference, but you know that. You simply choose to ignore it out of convenience, much as you do with most of your "arguments."

Asking me to use the shitty system isn't "challenging" me to do anything. That's a ridiculous way to try to argue, especially when you don't want to accept my counter-"challenge." Good luck with that.

I don't even know why you want to continue the discussion after that last post I made, but feel free to swim circles in the waters of futility. I don't really care.

"

AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

As for your precious GGGods' principles, they are flawed. Simple as that. There is nothing inherently wrong with automated trading, and trying to use D3 as an example is much like wondering why a cheese grater can't be used as a raft. D3 didn't fail because it had an AH; it failed because it had a Real Money AH. There's an enormous difference, but you know that. You simply choose to ignore it out of convenience, much as you do with most of your "arguments."

Um, no.

1. After the first 2 weeks or so no one used the RMAH. The D3 RMT status quo was: you buy billions of gold from 3rd-party seller who undercut the legit RMAH, then you spent billions on item in gold AH. You would have more luck trying to flip gold third-party yourself than using the RMAH for anything; it was completely, utterly worthless.
2. The gold auction house was fully one-half of the reason for economic failure. The first half was taking a currency almost designed for bot-fueled inflation - least scarce resource ever, takes no inventory space, everything you farm converts to it, could be farmed without encountering monsters, automatic pickup - and then the second half was making said fucked-up currency as The Only Currency Which Matters by forcing it directly into the game's only effective trading system. Gold + auction house = fail.
3. The whole argument is moot anyway. PoE has an auction house based around in-game currency, but the PoE economy fairs much better. The proper conclusion is that PoE currency is more resiliently designed than D3 currency, such that introducing an AH in PoE has much less of a devastating effect.

The more of your posts on this subject I read, the more it seems such posts are entirely either:
1. Logical fallacies or outright untruths directed at others
2. The passionate hatred of alt-tabbing out of the PoE client

Now, #2 is completely arbitrary, but that doesn't mean it isn't excellent feedback. I mean, I will never, ever hate alt-tabbing that much, but it does mildly annoy, so I could totally imagine digging deeper into that. You could make a big long post about the immersion-breaking experiences of poe.trade and Procurement; the way internet research is needed to reveal these tools, softlocking a huge percentage of the playerbase out from utilizing them; the dependence of the economy's future on a "free poe.trade" and potential ramifications if control changes hands (there are unpostable precedents of this happening for PoE economy websites). All because GGG is too cheap to develop it themselves and has a third party do it for them.

You might post that; I couldn't possibly give a shit.

You have the passion; because of that, I'm rooting for you. But it feels like being a fan of a losing sports team, because despite all that passion I can't help but love, you are a horrible advocate of your own cause, leading to many a facepalm.

I hope you turn shit around. My advice: stop trying for the logic win. Your passion is rooted in feels, so use them. If you just share your experience, the experience of one humble person, and you communicate it with passion, you might be surprised how many people it resonates with.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

I hope you turn shit around. My advice: stop trying for the logic win. Your passion is rooted in feels, so use them. If you just share your experience, the experience of one humble person, and you communicate it with passion, you might be surprised how many people it resonates with.

Couldn't agree with this statement more. If he would do an honest writeup of his experience with trading and using the system his argument would fair much better, instead he only uses other games and 3rd party as his argument, which reflect very poorly on his stance.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Um, no.

1. After the first 2 weeks or so no one used the RMAH. The D3 RMT status quo was: you buy billions of gold from 3rd-party seller who undercut the legit RMAH, then you spent billions on item in gold AH. You would have more luck trying to flip gold third-party yourself than using the RMAH for anything; it was completely, utterly worthless.
2. The gold auction house was fully one-half of the reason for economic failure. The first half was taking a currency almost designed for bot-fueled inflation - least scarce resource ever, takes no inventory space, everything you farm converts to it, could be farmed without encountering monsters, automatic pickup - and then the second half was making said fucked-up currency as The Only Currency Which Matters by forcing it directly into the game's only effective trading system. Gold + auction house = fail.
3. The whole argument is moot anyway. PoE has an auction house based around in-game currency, but the PoE economy fairs much better. The proper conclusion is that PoE currency is more resiliently designed than D3 currency, such that introducing an AH in PoE has much less of a devastating effect.

1. I played during that time, and the RMAH was alive and well right up to the very end. This is very false of you to say.
2. While I half way agree with you, the problem is that many games do still make this work, as WoW did for a long time--same currency, in fact. And as you said, PoE's currency is more resilient still.
3. If you think poe.trade is the same thing as an AH, what's wrong with having in-game support for it?

"

The more of your posts on this subject I read, the more it seems such posts are entirely either:
1. Logical fallacies or outright untruths directed at others
2. The passionate hatred of alt-tabbing out of the PoE client

That's funny, because that's how I've read 99% of Goetzjam's counter-"arguments." Nearly all of them boil down to "PoE is/should be unique. Plz don't change it." Even all the arguments about item accessibility and making the game too easy are true of poe.trade as well, so the entire slippery-slope argument so many of these pro-status quo people like to use is entirely false.

"

Now, #2 is completely arbitrary, but that doesn't mean it isn't excellent feedback. I mean, I will never, ever hate alt-tabbing that much, but it does mildly annoy, so I could totally imagine digging deeper into that. You could make a big long post about the immersion-breaking experiences of poe.trade and Procurement; the way internet research is needed to reveal these tools, softlocking a huge percentage of the playerbase out from utilizing them; the dependence of the economy's future on a "free poe.trade" and potential ramifications if control changes hands (there are unpostable precedents of this happening for PoE economy websites). All because GGG is too cheap to develop it themselves and has a third party do it for them.

I do hate alt-tabbing, but that isn't exclusive to me. His previous argument about "all modern PCs... blah, blah, blah" is just a bad form of a No True Scotsman fallacy. I have met tons of players who can barely run the game, and it gets worse every season because the game is so poorly optimized.

As for why I hate poe.trade, besides the extremely cheap and unprofessional things it speaks about GGG, you nailed a couple of them, there are a couple more and I have previously mentioned them.

1. It's unreliable. Half the time I PM someone listed as online, they are not.
2. It's not as safe as people believe, and I can't believe Goetz would propose otherwise (open source =/= safe, btw). Maybe GGG won't do anything about it until something happens, but that would just paint them in an even less attractive light since they have the power to prevent it.
3. It's extremely inconvenient, but somehow Goetz asserts convenience is automatically bad. Somehow.

GGG's statements back in Alpha were misguided and don't hold up for most gamers these days. This is evidenced by the extremely low player retention rate when you compare how many people have tried the game against how few people stayed. This point is salient, not only about trading, but about many things in the game (desync probably chief among them).

And very briefly on the subject of desync, D2 had/has an enormous adoring fanbase, despite the prevalent cheating that went on. I'm not saying that I want people cheating in poe, but a stable, reliable gameplay experience is far more valuable. This is one of the chief reasons provided in many of those "this game sucks, I quit" threads. Again GGG's idealistic, yet ultimately misguided, principles at work.

To use those statements as your basis for argument is equally flawed. GGG has made several promises that they have failed to uphold, and a better trade system IS among them.

"

You might post that; I couldn't possibly give a shit.

You have the passion; because of that, I'm rooting for you. But it feels like being a fan of a losing sports team, because despite all that passion I can't help but love, you are a horrible advocate of your own cause, leading to many a facepalm.

I hope you turn shit around. My advice: stop trying for the logic win. Your passion is rooted in feels, so use them. If you just share your experience, the experience of one humble person, and you communicate it with passion, you might be surprised how many people it resonates with.

Many have tried this approach, and people like Goetz all respond the same way to it: One person's experience doesn't count. We need "reasons" to change it. Blah, blah, blah... I fear it is you who is guilty of the logical fallacy here. Trying to reduce my arguments to "feels" is just a dressed up ad hominem itself.

One other thing. The most repeated and flawed thing Goetz has used in defending the status quo was trying to argue that "this will never change, stop trying." Things do change. People like me simply help them on their way.

Is this thread a joke? Trade system in PoE is far from being fine. What am I talking about, there isn't any trade system. And 3rd party sites or forum are not a solution. If I can't trade effectively in game, then something is wrong. Especially, that trading is so important in PoE, since 99% of stuff you find is completely useless on your hero.

I mean, OP might as well say, that we don't need shops or money in real life, because you can just stand in the middle of the street and scream at people, what do you need and what can you trade for it.
I'm pretty sure, most of the players don't even bother with trading, because of how painful it is.

Just because you're some hipster that enjoys "putting effort" in overcomplicating simple things, doesn't mean this system is good.

You are arguing with someone that is trying to support your claims @scrotiemcb is pretty much on board with your claims, although I also find it weird that he is the creator of the very popular thread suggesting everyone to stop supporting PoE. I guess someone you probably don't want on your side of an argument as it can look very bad that he supports your argument and wants PoE to fail.

Yeah lets make your argument in a few words. 3rd party for TOOLS, not the actual trade system. poe.trade simply search the forums better, doesn't require any login information or ANYTHING from an end user, block information if you want poe.trade doesn't care. Procurement is a TOOL that helps you list items better, again I have to state this because it seems like you don't know what any of them do. (probably because you refuse to use them based on lol 3rd party argument)

"

As for why I hate poe.trade, besides the extremely cheap and unprofessional things it speaks about GGG, you nailed a couple of them, there are a couple more and I have previously mentioned them.

1. It's unreliable. Half the time I PM someone listed as online, they are not.
2. It's not as safe as people believe, and I can't believe Goetz would propose otherwise (open source =/= safe, btw). Maybe GGG won't do anything about it until something happens, but that would just paint them in an even less attractive light since they have the power to prevent it.
3. It's extremely inconvenient, but somehow Goetz asserts convenience is automatically bad. Somehow.

Lol cheap, please do explain.

1) that is a QoL change that GGG can make, there are more then one reason to PM a player in game. I support GGG adding a sort of afk message if a player hasn't moved in XX time. Would be better if it could respond with the exact AFK time. You might also want to try /whois playername to see if they aren't responding because of a map.

a) this issue is only more commonly occurring as the tools that were meant to help this, actually hurt this. That being said please give an example of an item you tried to purchase recently and weren't able to because a "few" people didn't respond back.

2) Its the forums, assuming everyone does secured browsing (I mean who doesn't these days) every step of the way is both safe and secured. Once you realize what each program does you then can understand how it is or isn't safe. In addition procurement is completely OPTIONAL to trade successfully, it was done this way before. But you are right, open source doesn't technically = safe, it just means the code is available for ANYONE to view and GGG has reviewed the code multiple times and vetted it safe. But by all means dissect the code and find something that makes it unsafe, until then the claim is FACT that procurement is safe and secure to use.

3) Please support your claim that it is EXTREMELY INCONVENIENT, you aren't even bothered to use the system, yet somehow you feel entitled to make claims about it. Let me reiterate the fact that it has taken you MULTIPLE times the work to write replies then it will take you to list items for trade in poe (with the current system)

"

GGG's statements back in Alpha were misguided and don't hold up for most gamers these days. This is evidenced by the extremely low player retention rate when you compare how many people have tried the game against how few people stayed. This point is salient, not only about trading, but about many things in the game (desync probably chief among them).

You claim numbers, but provide no proof, not that numbers alone mean anything. Please for the love of all that is holy don't use steam, it can't represent the PoE player base as a whole. Players like myself don't use it.

In addition I think GGG rather stick with the ideals and principles the company was founded on. While it might not be most attractive to a larger playerbase it is EXTREMELY attractive to players like myself and players like myself support this game so as long as it continues to uphold its principles and values that make the game both fun, unique and challenging.

Referring to peoples personal experiences with the system I value those that try to use it and can explain their problems with it far more valuable then those that don't use it and just complain. In regards to the one person earlier in this thread complaining, his issue is economy based, rather then trade based, he doesn't have a shop, but has some legacy gear to sell, unfortunately you aren't going to sell anything if no one knows you have it for sell.

Then stop trying to persuade every person that replies in this thread that 3rd party is unacceptable, it happens in literally every popular game ever. The level of reliance on such applications\sites might be higher in PoE, but then again it is an indie dev game company. I wish for you to understand that an AH that you are suggesting won't happen, again this goes against a core principle that GGG has stated in the past, much like trusting the client and AH would change MORE then one system and the cascading effect would both be detrimental to the game and to those players that adored those principles that GGG has established.


as for

"

Is this thread a joke? Trade system in PoE is far from being fine. What am I talking about, there isn't any trade system. And 3rd party sites or forum are not a solution. If I can't trade effectively in game, then something is wrong. Especially, that trading is so important in PoE, since 99% of stuff you find is completely useless on your hero.

If you cannot trade effectively the issue is on yourself as many others can both buy and sell items effectively.

"

I mean, OP might as well say, that we don't need shops or money in real life, because you can just stand in the middle of the street and scream at people, what do you need and what can you trade for it.
I'm pretty sure, most of the players don't even bother with trading, because of how painful it is.

You have the ability to list your items effectively now and create that shop like feel. I believe most players DO trade, the frequency and\or quality of such trades might not be that great, but you make a claim that trading is a must, so more then likely most people do trade.

Do you use procurment, if so please link your shop thread?

-goetzjam-