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Wow I agree with literally everything he said. At least I'm not a streamer and can just ignore the game until GGG does something tho
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Posted byDmo90#6022on Jan 28, 2025, 7:41:56 AM
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https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2365166843
[1:40:55.960 --> 1:40:56.820]
And so much of this shit is, like, oh, you can hand me the way with, oh, it's early access. But, is it really? Like, I mean, to me, when I hear, like, early access slash beta, what I think is, this is an unfinished game that's gonna be changed a lot constantly. It's been two months. What's changed? Like, what's changed? There's not even balance changes happening until, until resets come out. Like, with new leagues as if it's a fully released game. I don't get it, man. I don't get it.
Oh, I can’t stand hearing the same arguments anymore—‘It’s been two months, why hasn’t GGG fixed this or that?’ People seriously don’t understand how difficult it is to develop and implement changes in projects of this scale.
I’m not against constructive arguments, but this…"I don't get it, man. I don't get it."
What we have right now in terms of endgame content is actually huge, especially considering that GGG had to pivot and start developing all of this from scratch. The speed at which they’ve done it is honestly insane.
Over 6 years to come up with half the campaign, half the classes, third of ascendancies and copy-pasted poe1 endgame? Yeah, that's insane. Insanely SLOW I might add.
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Posted by_ZLoBny_#7128on Jan 28, 2025, 8:27:13 AM
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https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2365166843
[1:40:55.960 --> 1:40:56.820]
And so much of this shit is, like, oh, you can hand me the way with, oh, it's early access. But, is it really? Like, I mean, to me, when I hear, like, early access slash beta, what I think is, this is an unfinished game that's gonna be changed a lot constantly. It's been two months. What's changed? Like, what's changed? There's not even balance changes happening until, until resets come out. Like, with new leagues as if it's a fully released game. I don't get it, man. I don't get it.
Oh, I can’t stand hearing the same arguments anymore—‘It’s been two months, why hasn’t GGG fixed this or that?’ People seriously don’t understand how difficult it is to develop and implement changes in projects of this scale.
I’m not against constructive arguments, but this…"I don't get it, man. I don't get it."
What we have right now in terms of endgame content is actually huge, especially considering that GGG had to pivot and start developing all of this from scratch. The speed at which they’ve done it is honestly insane.
Yeah, as a developer myself I understand that things take time. But trying to understand his frustration I think it's more about the game design choices and how they haven't changed.
For example, the current atlas, there's a lot of issues with it, and the only "change" we've seen is the better zoom.
Backtracking in maps, the "change" was to add checkpoints.
He later mentions how these things are just band-aids.
I think he's worried that GGG will keep these design choices, instead of like completely redesigning the atlas and maps.
So when he says there were no changes, I think he means that there was nothing to address the game design issues.
Something among those lines probably. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a change in the game, I think it could be just in communication "hey we know the atlas sucks, we'll change it", but nothing like that happened either.
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Posted bykamiknx#1162on Jan 28, 2025, 8:31:15 AM
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https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2365166843
[1:40:55.960 --> 1:40:56.820]
And so much of this shit is, like, oh, you can hand me the way with, oh, it's early access. But, is it really? Like, I mean, to me, when I hear, like, early access slash beta, what I think is, this is an unfinished game that's gonna be changed a lot constantly. It's been two months. What's changed? Like, what's changed? There's not even balance changes happening until, until resets come out. Like, with new leagues as if it's a fully released game. I don't get it, man. I don't get it.
Oh, I can’t stand hearing the same arguments anymore—‘It’s been two months, why hasn’t GGG fixed this or that?’ People seriously don’t understand how difficult it is to develop and implement changes in projects of this scale.
I’m not against constructive arguments, but this…"I don't get it, man. I don't get it."
What we have right now in terms of endgame content is actually huge, especially considering that GGG had to pivot and start developing all of this from scratch. The speed at which they’ve done it is honestly insane.
Over 6 years to come up with half the campaign, half the classes, third of ascendancies and copy-pasted poe1 endgame? Yeah, that's insane. Insanely SLOW I might add.
People often forget that when development starts, it doesn’t mean the entire studio immediately drops everything to work on the new project. Usually, it begins with a small team focusing on core concepts, engine upgrades, and key mechanics, with full-scale development happening much later.
Yes, you can say “six years,” but those years include foundational work, system overhauls, and maintaining PoE1 at the same time. If it were just a copy-paste job, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
Developing a game like this is a complex process that requires an enormous amount of time
Last edited by AmmyFarrahFowler#1302 on Jan 28, 2025, 9:59:01 AM
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https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2365166843
[1:40:55.960 --> 1:40:56.820]
And so much of this shit is, like, oh, you can hand me the way with, oh, it's early access. But, is it really? Like, I mean, to me, when I hear, like, early access slash beta, what I think is, this is an unfinished game that's gonna be changed a lot constantly. It's been two months. What's changed? Like, what's changed? There's not even balance changes happening until, until resets come out. Like, with new leagues as if it's a fully released game. I don't get it, man. I don't get it.
Oh, I can’t stand hearing the same arguments anymore—‘It’s been two months, why hasn’t GGG fixed this or that?’ People seriously don’t understand how difficult it is to develop and implement changes in projects of this scale.
I’m not against constructive arguments, but this…"I don't get it, man. I don't get it."
What we have right now in terms of endgame content is actually huge, especially considering that GGG had to pivot and start developing all of this from scratch. The speed at which they’ve done it is honestly insane.
Yeah, as a developer myself I understand that things take time. But trying to understand his frustration I think it's more about the game design choices and how they haven't changed.
For example, the current atlas, there's a lot of issues with it, and the only "change" we've seen is the better zoom.
Backtracking in maps, the "change" was to add checkpoints.
He later mentions how these things are just band-aids.
I think he's worried that GGG will keep these design choices, instead of like completely redesigning the atlas and maps.
So when he says there were no changes, I think he means that there was nothing to address the game design issues.
Something among those lines probably. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a change in the game, I think it could be just in communication "hey we know the atlas sucks, we'll change it", but nothing like that happened either.
GGG has always taken an iterative approach, making gradual improvements over time. While some changes may feel like band-aids, that doesn’t mean a full redesign isn’t coming. It’s just unrealistic to expect sweeping overhauls this soon.
And yeah, better communication about long-term plans would help, but historically, GGG tends to reveal major changes when they’re closer to implementation rather than making promises too early.
And it seems like the “veterans” of PoE, especially Ben_, should definitely be aware of this, right?
And as I said before, I’m not against constructive arguments, but just look at the playthroughs from a year ago and compare them to what we have now. It’s clear there’s been significant progress, even if it’s not always as fast as some would like.
Last edited by AmmyFarrahFowler#1302 on Jan 28, 2025, 10:01:43 AM
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I asked AI to explain it to me like I'm 5:
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Imagine you have a big toy box filled with all your favorite toys. One day, your parents decide to change how the toys are organized in the box. They think the new way is better and start making small changes to it to make it even better. But you and your friends liked the old way and don't really enjoy playing with the toys in the new way, even with the changes.
In the game PoE 2, the developers changed the Atlas system (like the toy box), but some players (like you and your friends) don't like the new system, even though the developers are trying to make it better.
This is what I'm trying to say.
I don't think Ben expects everything to change overnight, I think his frustration is that GGG only has eyes for the new way, which he thinks is bad even if they keep iterating over it. |
Posted bykamiknx#1162on Jan 28, 2025, 10:03:50 AM
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I asked AI to explain it to me like I'm 5:
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Imagine you have a big toy box filled with all your favorite toys. One day, your parents decide to change how the toys are organized in the box. They think the new way is better and start making small changes to it to make it even better. But you and your friends liked the old way and don't really enjoy playing with the toys in the new way, even with the changes.
In the game PoE 2, the developers changed the Atlas system (like the toy box), but some players (like you and your friends) don't like the new system, even though the developers are trying to make it better.
This is what I'm trying to say.
I don't think Ben expects everything to change overnight, I think his frustration is that GGG only has eyes for the new way, which he thinks is bad even if they keep iterating over it.
I got you, but he specifically calls out that it’s been two months and questions what’s actually changed in that time. It’s less about GGG sticking to the new direction and more about the apparent lack of tangible change within that timeframe.
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I love these people that act like PoE1 map "bosses" were anything more than a monster with slightly more health and a couple of extra attacks their meta builds would never see in the first place. They got liquidated just as quickly as everything else; they meant nothing.
At least rare hunting gives me a reason to run through the map, and if they fix up the rare rates in some maps and quintuple the number of checkpoints, it would be a far more enjoyable system than PoE1 mapping ever was.
Every time I run into a horde of rares all bundled on top of each other, the game becomes far more engaging than PoE1 mapping ever was. It just needs to happen more often.
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Posted byPolantaris#1920on Jan 28, 2025, 10:18:48 AM
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I love these people that act like PoE1 map "bosses" were anything more than a monster with slightly more health and a couple of extra attacks their meta builds would never see in the first place. They got liquidated just as quickly as everything else; they meant nothing.
At least rare hunting gives me a reason to run through the map, and if they fix up the rare rates in some maps and quintuple the number of checkpoints, it would be a far more enjoyable system than PoE1 mapping ever was.
Every time I run into a horde of rares all bundled on top of each other, the game becomes far more engaging than PoE1 mapping ever was. It just needs to happen more often.
With the Boss, you know it's at "the end of the map". With rares, you don't know where they are.
Checkpoints didn't solve the backtracking issue. 100 checkpoints would work, but look ridiculous.
If only they just revealed rares right away, or when you get "near" them (a few screens away?) maybe it'd be better or even eliminate backtracking.
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Posted bykamiknx#1162on Jan 28, 2025, 10:50:32 AM
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Ben_ posted a video that summarizes this whole stream
https://youtu.be/nA1MzS2l_rw?si=SC4au1afQGjuBWPJ
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Posted bykamiknx#1162on Jan 28, 2025, 2:28:03 PM
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