Why dedicate my time if I can lose all my XP with a death penalty?

"

Vinsdvalh#0247 wrote:

1) it can be tricky to compare "successful" from our point of view and "successful" from tencent point of view. It's well know that companies like to make money but they also really like to make "more money than last year". This need for growth can become tricky over time, and if your revenue is stable, the way to ensure this growth is to cut cost and then a vicious cicle starts. Also, regarding this, promises and objectives could have been made between Tencent and GGG in terms of investment and revenue.


2) i think we still should keep "the business point of view". We are consumer as you said and we are GGG's client. As clients we are entitled to review the product and to requests for changes. In a business realtionship, you usually don't go snoop around other client's requests and tell them they're wrong. It is a star shaped model of relations, client talk to business, business talk back, and that's it.

"

Vinsdvalh#0247 wrote:

The next step of that is GGG not having to do better. Never challenged. Every request for change from community is pushed away by community. You're going to have PoE 2. And on release they're gonan release Torment. 4 months later, Legion, 4 months later, Incursions, etc , etc , etc
You're gonna have a mirror of PoE 1 with minimal effort from GGG. That's why I advocate to stop thinking GGG is your big bro and think GGG as a business who owes you a better game even when it's great.

"

Volccari#1337 wrote:

League competition to 100lvl shouldn't ever be that super important that it ruins the gameplay experience for majority of people.

"

dwqrf#0717 wrote:

???????? Hardcore players don't have the right to progress, grind, farm, trade, and such ? What ?
You think Hardcore players just play -to die- ??

"

Vinsdvalh#0247 wrote:

"

ogmersault#4806 wrote:

If a group of investors starts to decide they are going to take over development decisions for ggg then the game has no hope. Nothing good comes from appeasing random bean counters besides getting money. Blizzard has proven this, Ubisoft has proven this. The entire state of triple a gaming has proven this. Pandering to your investors is the WORST reason to make game development decisions.

Tencent has done well so far because they DONT do this. Why would they suddenly start now? They already have their own client for China with the freedom to make swathing changes to the game for path of exile 1 (full blown auction house controlled by bots that have ruined every leagues economy at the speed of light). Why would they suddenly change the format that’s been nothing but successful for them?

People need to stop acting like they know what kind of impact their opinions have on the game as a whole. We provide feedback, it’s not up to us to decide we know what’s best for the game as a,”product”. As the consumer we shouldn’t even be looking at it from a business point of view. That shit has nothing to do with us. All this vocal minority, you will lose x amount of players, yada yada, has no basis when it comes to giving feedback. You’re just trying to make it sound like your opinion has more credence than someone else’s. Knock that dumb shit off.

I agree with you 100% about everything you said but i'd like to add some nuances.

1) it can be tricky to compare "successful" from our point of view and "successful" from tencent point of view. It's well know that companies like to make money but they also really like to make "more money than last year". This need for growth can become tricky over time, and if your revenue is stable, the way to ensure this growth is to cut cost and then a vicious cicle starts. Also, regarding this, promises and objectives could have been made between Tencent and GGG in terms of investment and revenue.


2) i think we still should keep "the business point of view". We are consumer as you said and we are GGG's client. As clients we are entitled to review the product and to requests for changes. In a business realtionship, you usually don't go snoop around other client's requests and tell them they're wrong. It is a star shaped model of relations, client talk to business, business talk back, and that's it.

My point: with a system where you suggest a change and the whole community comes take a dump on your opinion is that it's counter productive as it drives you away from giving ideas by extension possible good ideas from sprouting.

The next step of that is GGG not having to do better. Never challenged. Every request for change from community is pushed away by community. You're going to have PoE 2. And on release they're gonan release Torment. 4 months later, Legion, 4 months later, Incursions, etc , etc , etc
You're gonna have a mirror of PoE 1 with minimal effort from GGG. That's why I advocate to stop thinking GGG is your big bro and think GGG as a business who owes you a better game even when it's great.

"

Mouser#2899 wrote:

"

dwqrf#0717 wrote:

???????? Hardcore players don't have the right to progress, grind, farm, trade, and such ? What ?
You think Hardcore players just play -to die- ??

Of course they have the right to do all that. But reaching the end should require absolute mastery of the game and near perfect execution throughout (along with a healthy bit of luck).

Look at Borderlands 2: there are people who have beaten the game all the way through the hardest levels (OP10) - so four complete playthroughs of the game -deathless.

That took them hundreds of hours of direct attempts, after hundreds more playing and mastering the game.

Very few people have ever achieved that feat: THAT is a flex.

I'll say it again: If regular players (not the top 10% playing eight hours a day, and not the bottom 10% putting in a couple hours on the weekend) are not dying regularly - if they can go ten, twenty maps without a death - then the game is too easy and needs to be rebalanced.

"

dwqrf#0717 wrote:

This is the best feedback we've had so far about time spent vs XP penalty compared to other axis of progression, so thank you very much for that.

Now let me ask you this :
Why do you want do reach level 100 ?
Do you think it's an imprtant progress step in this game ?
Do you think it's always mandatory to reach for A game ?
Are you sure it's mandatory for THIS game ?
If it's about closure, couldn't you settle at any other level instead, by choice ?
If it's a challenge, are you willing to keep trying ?

And on a side note, how tanky/damage/balanced oriented is your build, overall ?

"

Akedomo#3573 wrote:

"

adrenrocker#5143 wrote:

Plenty? Elder Scrolls, Civ, Tetris Forever, Legend of Zelda, most things? I just don't think of them as accomplishments, especially when they require tons of time. See, it doesn't bother me that i have a lot of free time on my hands and I dedicate it towards gaming. I just also don't think it means anything else.

Not judging you at all. Was just interested in what you played.

I don't view video games as an accomplishment either. It's entertainment, enjoyment, and usually a relaxing experience for me. Games that have too many mechanics, or too high of a difficulty, aren't usually on my radar. Unless of course, it's done well. Like Elden Ring/Dark Souls.

I'm currently playing a decently modded morrowind game, been enjoying that over dying in PoE and losing XP. I've got a few hours each evening to play something. It's nice enjoying games that respect my time more. The over-all experience is just more enjoyable.

I think a lot of people are at a point in their life, where being good at a video game is one of the few things they feel accomplished in. It's how I used to act with video games when I was younger, because I was really good with them. And I was at a point in my life where I didn't really have much else going on. Once I got more in my life to fill it up, I realized that keeping that mindset was unhealthy. I was constantly stressed and upset in video games. Rather than playing them for enjoyment. It really made things unenjoyable. I lost the spark.

"

Of course they have the right to do all that. But reaching the end should require absolute mastery of the game and near perfect execution throughout (along with a healthy bit of luck).

Look at Borderlands 2: there are people who have beaten the game all the way through the hardest levels (OP10) - so four complete playthroughs of the game -deathless.

That took them hundreds of hours of direct attempts, after hundreds more playing and mastering the game.

Very few people have ever achieved that feat: THAT is a flex.

I'll say it again: If regular players (not the top 10% playing eight hours a day, and not the bottom 10% putting in a couple hours on the weekend) are not dying regularly - if they can go ten, twenty maps without a death - then the game is too easy and needs to be rebalanced.

"

adrenrocker#5143 wrote:

"

dwqrf#0717 wrote:

Why do you want do reach level 100 ?
Do you think it's an imprtant progress step in this game ?
Do you think it's always mandatory to reach for A game ?
Are you sure it's mandatory for THIS game ?
If it's about closure, couldn't you settle at any other level instead, by choice ?
If it's a challenge, are you willing to keep trying ?

And on a side note, how tanky/damage/balanced oriented is your build, overall ?

This feedback is all over the place as are plenty of other penalty alternatives. The problem is anyone who supplies it is told they are a baby and should go play D4. I posted almost the exact same thing in a different thread and got that response about 4 times. Most people aren't as stubborn as me when it comes to feedback haha


Before I answer your questions I should make it clear this actually isn't about me. Its about me wanting to see the game I like do well. If XP loss never affected me I would still be arguing this. I have never had any expectation of hitting 100. Maybe I will get there but it honestly isn't impacting my opinions (beyond the subconscious bias none of us can get rid of). Its more about fun and making progress in skill or power.

1. Because its another vector for progress and the feeling of progress and gaining power is a big part of this game. And a game like this needs to make you feel like you are always making progress. That progress might be gear, XP, skill, or knowledge but it needs to do that almost every play session. It doesn't and I have my doubts it can do so with XP loss without making other systems too easy.

2. No, I don't. But most of the people defending it are the ones making it out to be. "If other people can get there eventually it doesn't feel like an achievement." If its not a big deal, why does it matter who gets there? Like to my XP debt example, is it really diminishing your achievement when those folks are likely taking 3-5 times as long to get there? Especially since most people who would run into the XP debt penalty often are gonna move on to another game or a league at some point before then anyway. Maybe I just don't get it but there is a weird thing in this thread where it both isn't important and thinking it is shows you don't understand POE, but also its very important to protect the "achievement" of getting there.

Sorry, I am not sure I understand what you are asking.
This is a follow up to the above, sorry again.

I could, but that is not how human psychology works. If you put a max level, its going to become part of closure for some % of people. But honestly, I think hitting the max level is a red herring. Lets say there was no max level, you could level infinitely, and the best players all agreed the entire game is playable level 75 max as long as you keep gearing up. XP loss would still make people disincentivized to keep playing because of the time wasting feeling.

I am willing to keep trying if it doesn't feel like a waste of time. The best part about Campaign is that the current setup incentives you to git gud and try again. When you lose to a boss you start right out side their lair. Your options are to try again or (if you feel under powered) to go grind on the respawned enemies and then try again. The game is point blank telling you to challenge yourself, try again, and figure out the issue. There were more than a couple of times in campaign where all of the sudden i was helpless. And I immediately went "okay, what am I doing wrong" once I changed build, once I realized my gear now sucked, and at least once I realized this was my fault for missing the obvious trigger an attack was coming. Thats fucking great! That is the exact experience I want, the game going "Hey man, you can do this. Figure it out and try again." Now, this is endgame. It needs to be harsher and death needs more meaning, totally on board. But choose a penalty that encourages you to keep challenging yourself, not one that makes the monkey brain go "you wasted your limited time".

As for my build, when I first hit endgame it was too much of a glass cannon. So i switched it up to be significantly more tanky (I think the end result was like 3-4 times ES as an example). And worked a bit but i was unable to kill things quickly so they still over ran me. So, I went back to figure out the issue and quickly realized the experimenting phase required me to either be okay with feeling like I lost time, or going super down in levels, go very slow, see what dropped try things out. So I stopped and rolled up a new char. I would love to go back and spend hours figuring out what was wrong and get over it. The game is point blank telling me not to do that.

"

dwqrf#0717 wrote:

"

adrenrocker#5143 wrote:

"

dwqrf#0717 wrote:

Why do you want do reach level 100 ?
Do you think it's an imprtant progress step in this game ?
Do you think it's always mandatory to reach for A game ?
Are you sure it's mandatory for THIS game ?
If it's about closure, couldn't you settle at any other level instead, by choice ?
If it's a challenge, are you willing to keep trying ?

And on a side note, how tanky/damage/balanced oriented is your build, overall ?

This feedback is all over the place as are plenty of other penalty alternatives. The problem is anyone who supplies it is told they are a baby and should go play D4. I posted almost the exact same thing in a different thread and got that response about 4 times. Most people aren't as stubborn as me when it comes to feedback haha


Before I answer your questions I should make it clear this actually isn't about me. Its about me wanting to see the game I like do well. If XP loss never affected me I would still be arguing this. I have never had any expectation of hitting 100. Maybe I will get there but it honestly isn't impacting my opinions (beyond the subconscious bias none of us can get rid of). Its more about fun and making progress in skill or power.

1. Because its another vector for progress and the feeling of progress and gaining power is a big part of this game. And a game like this needs to make you feel like you are always making progress. That progress might be gear, XP, skill, or knowledge but it needs to do that almost every play session. It doesn't and I have my doubts it can do so with XP loss without making other systems too easy.

2. No, I don't. But most of the people defending it are the ones making it out to be. "If other people can get there eventually it doesn't feel like an achievement." If its not a big deal, why does it matter who gets there? Like to my XP debt example, is it really diminishing your achievement when those folks are likely taking 3-5 times as long to get there? Especially since most people who would run into the XP debt penalty often are gonna move on to another game or a league at some point before then anyway. Maybe I just don't get it but there is a weird thing in this thread where it both isn't important and thinking it is shows you don't understand POE, but also its very important to protect the "achievement" of getting there.

Sorry, I am not sure I understand what you are asking.
This is a follow up to the above, sorry again.

I could, but that is not how human psychology works. If you put a max level, its going to become part of closure for some % of people. But honestly, I think hitting the max level is a red herring. Lets say there was no max level, you could level infinitely, and the best players all agreed the entire game is playable level 75 max as long as you keep gearing up. XP loss would still make people disincentivized to keep playing because of the time wasting feeling.

I am willing to keep trying if it doesn't feel like a waste of time. The best part about Campaign is that the current setup incentives you to git gud and try again. When you lose to a boss you start right out side their lair. Your options are to try again or (if you feel under powered) to go grind on the respawned enemies and then try again. The game is point blank telling you to challenge yourself, try again, and figure out the issue. There were more than a couple of times in campaign where all of the sudden i was helpless. And I immediately went "okay, what am I doing wrong" once I changed build, once I realized my gear now sucked, and at least once I realized this was my fault for missing the obvious trigger an attack was coming. Thats fucking great! That is the exact experience I want, the game going "Hey man, you can do this. Figure it out and try again." Now, this is endgame. It needs to be harsher and death needs more meaning, totally on board. But choose a penalty that encourages you to keep challenging yourself, not one that makes the monkey brain go "you wasted your limited time".

As for my build, when I first hit endgame it was too much of a glass cannon. So i switched it up to be significantly more tanky (I think the end result was like 3-4 times ES as an example). And worked a bit but i was unable to kill things quickly so they still over ran me. So, I went back to figure out the issue and quickly realized the experimenting phase required me to either be okay with feeling like I lost time, or going super down in levels, go very slow, see what dropped try things out. So I stopped and rolled up a new char. I would love to go back and spend hours figuring out what was wrong and get over it. The game is point blank telling me not to do that.

This is extremely valuable feedback, thank you very much for your constructive contribution.