Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular

XP Penalty needs to go, simple as that.

All the counter points posted so far are completely invalid.

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B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

PoE like most ARPG games are simple grind games. It's all about the grind. Orbs, EXP, Items...

But being forced to grind in a location where I have not the slightest of challenge - just to not die and lose EXP - gets boring. Hence my question for the Devs in my initial post. What was their goal with the way they designed PoE and what is their goal for the EXP penalty.

Yes, you do not open a Map because you want a challenge. Again: both ways. I want to farm shit WHILE having challenging gameplay.

Maps are not a challenge. Maps are not meant to be a challenge. If you try to misuse them as a challenge and then bear the consequences it is on you, not the game. You are trying to misuse a saw to loosen a screw. That is not what the tool was made for. You are trying to play the game as something it was not made to do.

Someone else wrote that if they do not die in 1 out of 4 maps they do not consider it challenging. For PoE this is completely insane. You are not meant to die that often in maps. Maybe once in 100 maps would be ok, If you die more often then that you are doing something wrong.

It is very simple. You improve your character, become stronger and farm more difficult content and farm faster. But not everybody can and should start right at the end. There is a progression and it starts at the beginning.

But the game gives you freedom. You are free to do content that is above your characters capabilities. But then going to the forum crying to remove the penalties that are meant to prevent this is just a bad joke.

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B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

At this point GGG could describe their game like: "You either have an OP build copied from someone else because as inexperienced ARPG player you can make a valid endgame build yourself due to our complexity and if you want to keep playing one character and finish leveling it, you have to run on levels that have no challenge at all"

I assume you meant "can not"?

This is simply not true. Even new players can make good endgame builds. Given, due to the complexity it is very difficult to do so. But the correct way to go about this is, when someone hits a wall, to take a pause, look at their character and try to improve it. Think what am I dying to, check resistances, check defenses like block, evade, try different things, ... There are many options for new players. They also could just look up a guide, but they are also capable of solving the issues themself if they want to.

I mostly played Solo Self Found and avoided guides in the beginning. Because I wanted to try myself. In PoE 1 that is. It took me quite some time before I had a working build that could do higher tier maps. But playing SFF and also not looking at guides is a limitation everybody is free to put on themself to try to overcome the obstacles alone.

Do you really think that the endgame should be balanced around the newest, most inexperienced players?

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B1tchFight#1281 wrote:

Would you even bother trying a game like this? Because that's what it currently is. 3 people from my steam friendlist stopped playing between lv 75 and 85. The reason for all of them is the EXP loss. Another one created his 3 character but is annoyed that he can't manage to get 1 character even remotely close to 90.

Then this type of game is simply not for them and they should try something else.

For me the main issue, that also really annoys me, is that so many people just want a participation trophy. And that's what it is. Just give me free stuff without me trying to improve.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

It is very simple. You improve your character, become stronger and farm more difficult content and farm faster. But not everybody can and should start right at the end. There is a progression and it starts at the beginning.

We all agree on this. Punishment is not necessary for progression.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

But the game gives you freedom. You are free to do content that is above your characters capabilities. But then going to the forum crying to remove the penalties that are meant to prevent this is just a bad joke.

Here's the crux of the issue: Why do you think it is a Bad Thing(tm) for players to try content above their level?

How does it hurt the game for players to try to overcome a boss or a challenge time after time hoping they'll overcome it? This is the basis of most (almost all) challenging video games.

One of the cool things about these games is setting up challenge runs, trying content you know you "shouldn't" beat but you overcome the odds and take them down.

Punishments do not improve the player experience in any way.


I'll also add on to another point - Since you have said you'd be asking for XP penalties if there were none, how about loss of items? That's another feature from those old school games. When you died, you lost all the items in your inventory. Surely that would give a heavy weightiness to the game and make your deaths matter. Why aren't you asking for that to be added?

The truth is you don't like the idea that the "unwashed masses" will be able to do the same content you do and want them forcibly gatekept out. It can't be enough that the challenge of the game itself will keep players from progressing, no, it needs to force them backward and away from you.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

How does it hurt the game for players to try to overcome a boss or a challenge time after time hoping they'll overcome it? This is the basis of most (almost all) challenging video games.

The XP penalty is mostly effecting mapping. Mapping has absolutely nothing to do with challenge. Yet you keep mixing those two.

Let's say someone wants a challenge. Ok good, do a pinnacle boss. You can either except the penalty if you fail or you can circumvent it. Simply level first in easier content. After the level up you can die as many times as you want, because the XP penalty does not remove a level. So just as an example if a character is level 60 and level 60 would be at (totally made up number) 4.000.000 XP then you would never be able to go below these 4.000.000 XP. Ergo dying without the XP penalty.

The only time XP loss can really effect a player is during mapping. Because this is the core endgame loop and if they keep dying they won't level.

Maps are not a challenge! If you keep dying in maps, you are doing something wrong! Lower the difficulty.

I do not know how much clearer I can say this.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

One of the cool things about these games is setting up challenge runs, trying content you know you "shouldn't" beat but you overcome the odds and take them down.

This can be said for bosses, but does absolutely not apply to maps. Maps are not a challenge to overcome. They are the core endgame loop you are supposed to farm for loot.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

Punishments do not improve the player experience in any way.

It serves as an additional way to signal the player that they are doing something wrong.

When I read what you are typing, I would argue that the penalty needs to be increased tenfold. Maybe drop half the gold or something. Because you are clearly not getting the message.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

I'll also add on to another point - Since you have said you'd be asking for XP penalties if there were none, how about loss of items? That's another feature from those old school games. When you died, you lost all the items in your inventory. Surely that would give a heavy weightiness to the game and make your deaths matter. Why aren't you asking for that to be added?

Drop items like in Diablo 2, where you can run to your corpse and pick them back up, or your corpse spawns in town and you can pick it up? Yes sure.

Permanently lost? I personally would argue against it. This seems too much like Hardcore.

But you are trying to take a simple small XP loss, that is even limited to the lowest XP of the current level and compare it to something radical like loosing all your items. With this comparison you only want to drag this into ridiculousness. It is not a valid comparison.

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Mouser#2899 wrote:

The truth is you don't like the idea that the "unwashed masses" will be able to do the same content you do and want them forcibly gatekept out. It can't be enough that the challenge of the game itself will keep players from progressing, no, it needs to force them backward and away from you.

Incorrect. Everybody can do the same content as I do. Like I said, I am bad at the game and can still do it. The difference may be that I listen to what the game tries to tell me and I try to improve my character.

If someone keeps bashing their head against a wall and keep failing it is not on me or the game. It is simply on them. And apparently the penalty not being hard enough for them to understand that this should not be happening. That they should do something else.

If they would listen to the games message, they would indeed progress. They simply choose to ignore the message and choose not to progress.

Once again, maps or map tiers are not a challenge. They are a difficulty slider. Everybody can choose their difficulty. The game simply tries to tell you what difficulty fits the current state of your character.

You are trying to change a game focused around grinding and improving your character to something else.

"the game is telling you that you're too weak for that content bro, you just need to become stronger bro"

Oh really, well let me tell you that this is precisely what people was trying to do - become stronger BY LEVELING UP. Instead game making them weaker by stealing their experience.
Btw waystones as a concept also shouldn't exist, garbage mechanic and waste of inventory space.

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

If someone keeps bashing their head against a wall and keep failing it is not on me or the game. It is simply on them. And apparently the penalty not being hard enough for them to understand that this should not be happening. That they should do something else.

Are you even playing PoE 2 or just rambling about nothing of substance?

The only lvl 100 character you have is an RF build. Your second highest character is a lvl 99 Necro with Minions. In fact, your most played build is Minions. Most of your other characters are below lvl 96.

Apparently, you are such a god gamer that you mainly play Minions, the easiest playstyle there is. Even in PoE 2, I was much, much faster leveling a Warrior with (nerfed) Popcorn SRS + Arsonists than any other method, without any Minion passives.

Get off your high horse and pick a better base to stand on. A Minion player talking shit to other people about death penalty is quite something, really.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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Avaricta#4758 wrote:

If someone keeps bashing their head against a wall and keep failing it is not on me or the game. It is simply on them. And apparently the penalty not being hard enough for them to understand that this should not be happening. That they should do something else.

Get off your high horse and pick a better base to stand on. A Minion player talking shit to other people about death penalty is quite something, really.

I am usually against Facebook but at this point I wish to have a like button. Well said... I do not check others profiles in a discussion about fact as I try to debunk what they say. But with every new comment it appears that there is even less to debunk. :-D

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You are trying to change a game focused around grinding and improving your character to something else.

Don't know what to reply to so I take the sum of your last comment.

No, I don't! I love the grind... Show me a single sentence where I try to change the game into something. I like a feature to be changed or removed. If "EXP Loss" is the very essence of the game that would change it totally then you have lied to me yesterday... I asked you what would change for you and you simply complained that you reach lv 100 earlier.

May you be so kind to tell me how this works? If you can't beat the content, but you keep playing it, you will not get loads of experience or items. So do you think it's worth wasting Maps ON PURPOSE to play content I know I can't beat what so ever? You act like I plan on run Tier 15 maps while my character so equipped for Tier 5 - No I don't want this... I claim nobody here wants this. Not a single soul who want's the EXP Loss removed, wants to play a Map he knows he can't win. That's what I would call common sense. If someone really thinks different, then his Brain damage also causes him to NOT CARE about EXP Loss. That's my thought about this.

That said: nobody wants to run content he's not meant to run. We simply want to run content that's hard without getting punched in the face 4 times. Map, Atlas Mod, Orbs, EXP ... On PoE the baseline counter was "there need to be a punishment" ... On PoE 2 I say we have 4 punishments and I want the EXP loss gone. Everyone who hates the EXP loss would bare with me and accept this trade off in a blink of an eye.


As for the maps that shouldn't be a challenge - sorry, it starts to get stupid from here on.
The Map system is the very core system why I play PoE and not Grim Dawn. It's the very reason why I played Last Epoch. It's like generating my own dungeon in the Map of my liking (with limits due to RNG)

It is the core of the game for me. Farming in dungeons to finish my character. And it is finished if I hit a wall I can't beat regardless of what I change.

And if I die 100 Times in a Map tier after changing 100 of things in my skills then I have to accept that my character is simply not good enough. But if the last few bits of EXP to lv 91 or 92 would give me an important skillpoint, then I want to be able to reach this point by all means and maybe something changes. But at some point I can't do something else but accept that I am stuck with tier 12 maps and can't play tier 13 because I can't even finish one so I can't even afford to find or craft new once... This limit is reached quite fast depending on the build. So the difference between EXP Loss and Map loss is the one that something you earned is taken from while trying to take on a new challenge you and something you invest to try a new challenge. That's a totally different mindset. I don't want to invest my EXP... I want to invest my Orbs and Maps.

Now you will stop reading and say out loud "MAPS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A CHALLENGE" ... Then what is? If 90% of the game time is playing Maps, then I like to play them the way I like to. And this means taking on a challenge every now and then WITHOUT loosing EXP.


Here we have another reason why I would like to have one of the Devs or the Boss here on the forum. You claim the game is about improving but playing maps shouldn't be a challenge. I claim that playing maps is the very key I have to use to improve my playstyle or skills while facing a challenge. You can only get better if you play against better people. That#s the very essence of chess and basically all other kind of battles.

What is it now? What is the very core of PoE? What is the real Idea behind EXP Loss or death penalty in general. I don't want to know what every one here thinks might be the reason. I want the intention of the one who implemented it.

And if his reason is: "To F*ck you all over if you come to the forum and whine about it" then I accept it. It's their game and their rules. But Then I would ask why his enjoyment about us dying and complaining is more impotent for him than something the majority of the gamer wants to further enjoy the game.

I really would like to talk to one of them about this topic... :-/ While it's fun to discuss with you guys. I don't care about your opinion directly. Positiv or negative. Because this discussion in general won't change anything. Sure a topic with a lot of traffic catches their attention but the forum times are over. ^^

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LaNSa#2186 wrote:

Xp loss is actually important part of the game.
It means you cant just put some random items together and keep ketting stronger.
Having to stop some times to figure how to make your build better simply makes game better.

Btw I dont care if you have multiple level 100 chars in current poe 1. If you did that 5-6 years ago that actually means something.

Argument makes no sense. Also, you’re wrong. If you’re dying constantly you’re going to progress very slowly and inefficiently and you will want to fix your build. Being penalized for it so you don’t progress just makes you want to quit the game.

You are not entitled to reaching level 100 without a substantial investment of time and effort.

I think the EXP loss should be higher actually. Be thankful you get to keep your character in SC.

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

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maquino85#7657 wrote:

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LaNSa#2186 wrote:

Xp loss is actually important part of the game.
It means you cant just put some random items together and keep ketting stronger.
Having to stop some times to figure how to make your build better simply makes game better.

Btw I dont care if you have multiple level 100 chars in current poe 1. If you did that 5-6 years ago that actually means something.

Argument makes no sense. Also, you’re wrong. If you’re dying constantly you’re going to progress very slowly and inefficiently and you will want to fix your build. Being penalized for it so you don’t progress just makes you want to quit the game.

being able to progress at all when you are consistently dying will give you a false sense of progress. I agree with LaNSa

the people that are against XP penalty are prob against it due to comparing themselves to other ppl. if your build is not finished by 90, you are doing something wrong.

How does it make the game better forcing someone to run 50 trivial maps to level up than 20 difficult maps where they die 20% of the time? How does that give them an inflated sense of accomplishment? What you’re saying doesn’t make sense. There’s no greater sense of achievement received from leveling up on easy content as there is on harder content. It’s literally the opposite.