Game is turning into a glass cannon only builds
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That topic is always so insanely unproductive because without a clear definition of what a "Player", "Average Player", etc. is there is no way of actually having a discussion.
There are currently 30k characters wearing a Mageblood and 13k wearing a Headhunter on poe.ninja. If that makes up the top 0.1% of players that points to an active playerbase of 40 milion. That seems extremely high. You can make these arguments for basically all available metrics on poe.ninja. There are around 100k characters above lvl 90. Every available metric points to the fact that there are in fact quite a lot of people engaging with the endgame or building very expensive builds. It should be on the people claiming otherwise to prove that this mythical "silent majority who quits the game super early" a) Exists b) Is relevant Last edited by stnikolauswagne#1468 on Sep 5, 2024, 10:39:14 AM
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" Well I would say that being dismissive of an entire segment of more casual or average players, or somehow indicating that an individual isnt a true PoE player or "core" gamer unless they do "X" is the height of egotistical gatekeeping. Its one of the reasons PoE1 has such a huge chasm between elite players and non-elite players atm. You may not like it, which I dont know how relevant that is, but you can always refer to Steam achievements to see what percentages of players hit specific milestones. I think its a good baseline at the very minimum as to what the general PoE experience is. Is that data perfect, or does it indicate non-steam player behavior from the PoE launcher? No. But it's the most fair indicator we have without being on GGG's payroll, nor is there any reason to believe players launching through Steam behave differently than the PoE launcher. The fact is that far more players don't make it maps than do, but this can also vary by league. PoE isn't exactly respectful of players time so depending on circumstances irl, some players may not be able to fully engage all the time. For example, I didn't play last league, but I did this one. Am I part of this core or not? Is my money any less significant than a 40/40 player from a business perspective? How in the world can anyone on this forum make generalized statements like that, and think people wouldn't balk at it? Again, and I don't know if offended is the right word or not, but I definitely would feel some sort of way if I was told I wasn't a true or core PoE player, or whatever term you want to use, based on some arbitrary milestone another player set. Nah man, that's bullshit imo. "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln Last edited by DarthSki44#6905 on Sep 5, 2024, 11:12:05 AM
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" There's a lot to unpack here I'm afraid: 1) I am not dismissive of casual gamers. I just don't think the game should be designed with their utomost comfort in mind. In this I am transactional and if you want to call that egotistical only because I am no perfect example of some ulterior altruism, so be it. Your approval doesn't concern me as I pursuit my personal interests. 2) Steam Achievements have been debunked over and over and over again. They have no relevancy, are not representative of anything, and have no bearing on this conversation 3) I don't care how much money you spend on the game or how much time you invest playing it. GGG might, but I doubt that they care more for either one of us in a mass of millions of players. We are not privy to information what metrics they use and what statistics they analyze to make strategic decisions. We can safely assume at least some of them are player retention and revenue, but beyond that your guess is as good as mine If you want to feel offended because you feel excluded from an assumed circle of people you don't know that is your call to make, but I think I explained myself well enough that a reasonably minded person understands what I put on the table. The opposite of knowledge is not illiteracy, but the illusion of knowledge. Last edited by ArtCrusade#4438 on Sep 5, 2024, 11:14:41 AM
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" 1. Whether or not you think you are being dismissive is irrelevant, especially if you then proceede to indicate why you are in fact dismissive. Personally I don't care what you do, all I'm asking is to be aware of what the behavior reflects. That's all. There is nothing inherently wrong with your opinion, other than conceding someone might disagree. 2. Debunked by who? Steam data is widely used for a whole host of measurements across the industry, and is trusted. You may have an issue with stats in general, but that means absolutely nothing to me. The data is there whether you like it or not. I was trying to be diplomatic, with how data is interpretated, but you went full denial mode. Hard disagree, that's borderline delusional imo. 3. I only brought this up since you did first. You say GGG should focus on a particular player for revenue purposes, but then can't explain why casual money is less relevant. It can't be both. Either we need data that elites in smaller numbers spend more, or simple math indicated more players = more money. Lastly I personally wasn't offended, but I was trying to demonstrate how someone might be if they were approached or treated with general contempt for not being a true elite PoE player. This community is amongst the worst I've seen, so there is that. I have no insecurities here. I've been with PoE since the very beginning, literally. "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln Last edited by DarthSki44#6905 on Sep 5, 2024, 12:05:48 PM
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" If we're being honest and realistic, Gx3 devs themselves are really calous and uncaring when it comes to the casual audience. People tend to forget, but without all the third party tools, guides and crafting sites, and even when a casual player uses them, PoE has a learning curve that is literally hell. How would you even create a filter for the game? Know what archnemesis mods really did? Figure out how nearby i am from that tree? By now i've helped more than thousands of players over the years, and my first words to them are: poe.ninja, PoB, guides. ANy other game i would just say "have fun and learn playing". Most of the time, that does not work in PoE. Ruthless should be [Removed by Support]. Last edited by AdRonZh3Ro#4713 on Sep 5, 2024, 12:21:35 PM
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" 1. I am not being dismissive, I just put my own interest in front of others. Would you call me egotistical for taking a job other people also apply for? Life is full of situations where you put your own interest before others. Your accusation falls short of reality. 2. By myself and others, every time in recent memory that someone waved Steam Achievements around as if they meant anything. If you really care about this moot point I can dig out one of those threads for you and dm it, but I am pretty sure you were present for at least some of them. 3. You asked me to define what the core playerbase is. In the context of this thread, while discussing who GGG balances the game for, I stated they balance the game around their target audience, thusly labeled core playerbase. I explained that people who play a game for longer periods of time are more likely to spend money on it. This is a known fact in the industry and to informed gamers so I didn't think I'd have to explain that to you, but fine. Someone who quits before hitting maps is less likely to spend money on supporter packs than someone who ran a thousand maps and is loaded with items they'd like to stash away. Makes sense so far? We can safely assume that GGG has that in mind when making decisions for the game. The opposite of knowledge is not illiteracy, but the illusion of knowledge.
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Well we have definitely made our points. We clearly see things differently, and ultimately that's the entire point of a forum in the first place.
I do think there is evidence that GGG (Especially Mark) is keenly aware that PoE1 isn't casual friendly, and is new player hostile, with all the associated problems that creates. Given that, it appears he is making strides in those areas, which would lead me to believe that he at the very least, thinks it's good for the game, or at the very worst, understands it's a big problem from a player growth and retention standpoint. I would anticipate PoE1 and PoE2 to be more palatable to a wider audience under his guidance compared to CW moving forward, but I suppose time will tell. "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
- Abraham Lincoln |
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" Which changes specifically are being made to keep the 75% of players who do not make it to Dominus according to Steam Achievements engaged? Or the 50% that don't make it past brutus? If these were metrics you would expect constant tweaking of the acts, yet the changes seem to mostly be made for the 15% of steam-achievers that have made it past act 10. |
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" On occasion. Inconsistently. Making them harder for the most part. Especially Act 1, which has become especially difficult for new players The opposite of knowledge is not illiteracy, but the illusion of knowledge.
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" I'm not sure about relevance, but I do know it exists. Back in Expedition league, Baeclast interviewed GGG and they came out and said that the vast bulk of players quit by the time they beat act 10. PoE players: Our game has a wide diversity of builds.
Also PoE players: The [league mechanic] doesn't need to be nerfed, you just need to play a [current meta] build! MFers found strength in their Afflictions. They became reliant on them. I am not so foolish. |
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