Game is turning into a glass cannon only builds

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Pizzarugi wrote:

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stnikolauswagne wrote:

It should be on the people claiming otherwise to prove that this mythical "silent majority who quits the game super early"

a) Exists
b) Is relevant

I'm not sure about relevance, but I do know it exists. Back in Expedition league, Baeclast interviewed GGG and they came out and said that the vast bulk of players quit by the time they beat act 10.

That is around the time Chris had an interview with Josh Strife Hayes where he acknowledged that people seeing the gigantic skill tree is a huge source of player loss and that they have these moments intentionally to make sure the people who stick around are the people who are excited about the complexity of the game and the tree, etc.

That is essentially what I mean when I asked for "relevancy", i.e. "Are these people the kind of people that GGG wants to appeal to or is high friction among early players unavoidable for a game as complex and deep as POE.

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stnikolauswagne wrote:

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Pizzarugi wrote:

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stnikolauswagne wrote:

It should be on the people claiming otherwise to prove that this mythical "silent majority who quits the game super early"

a) Exists
b) Is relevant

I'm not sure about relevance, but I do know it exists. Back in Expedition league, Baeclast interviewed GGG and they came out and said that the vast bulk of players quit by the time they beat act 10.

That is around the time Chris had an interview with Josh Strife Hayes where he acknowledged that people seeing the gigantic skill tree is a huge source of player loss and that they have these moments intentionally to make sure the people who stick around are the people who are excited about the complexity of the game and the tree, etc.

That is essentially what I mean when I asked for "relevancy", i.e. "Are these people the kind of people that GGG wants to appeal to or is high friction among early players unavoidable for a game as complex and deep as POE.

A few things I would comment on this.

There have been A LOT of changes in the early game to try and alleviate the stress on new players. It's likely you have been around so long you don't notice them. Whether it's advanced item descriptions, or tooltips showing which support gems work with what skills, to the very simple tutorial on the beach with skill gem and support gem that works with it. Overall they know it's a problem, Mark literally spoke on it during the last dev stream.

If you want even further proof, you can look at the things they are doing with PoE2.

I don't even think it's a question imo, but more of how differently CW and Mark have looked at this. Hell the trade manifesto just got launched out the window this past league. The vision CW had/has is not the same as the one Mark / Jonathan have. (It seems to me)

Edit: I would also say that if a player quits in act6, because the game is too hard for them, there isnt enough information, they don't understand how to scale dmg, the performance is shit with the skill they picked, or a host of other things, it's a relevant data point. The arguement that this shouldn't even be considered, and their data point invalidated is absolutely wild to me. It's their game experience plain and simple.

It's that time again with the same suspects being all bored and burned out of D4 once again.
No way there's another reason other than pure boredom for someone to share inaccurate steam achievement numbers and the obvious lack of knowledge for the 20th time. lol

Lets analyze other arpg achievements, D4:




It is a full price game (70€?), yet barely 60% (sic!) managed to kill few monsters, and only 29% finished campaign there. And this is a new and very hyped and advertised game. Seems like D4 despite being so casual friendly have massive issues with new players and with retention. 40% of people purchased the game and dumped it at start. Over half of remaining players quit before they finished campaign never to come back.

So is making things "casual friendly" improve anything? D4 proves it doesn't, despite people spending a lot of money to get the game they didn't want to play.

Lol indeed.

Those limited D4 stats only further prove out the PoE "debunked" stats are even more likely accurate, since they follow a similar vein, of a similar swath of players. I think we often take for granted what casual actually means, or how short lived attention spans are, given gaming choices. (30% is still more than double the PoE campaign number, with far higher numbers, even though PoE is f2p)

The massive differences being scale of course, and from a business perspective, D4 monetizing all those players. If you pay $70 and quit, and then even go on to spend more with an expansion a year, what exactly is the problem from a Blizzard perspective? They are not reliant as much on live service mtx.

Truth be told, I'm not even sure what the point being made is? That PoE shouldn't concern itself with onbaording new players, or appealing to less elite players, because a percentage of them will quit anyways? That's your business prop? Hmmm... ok?

I hear all the time that D4 Bad, D4 dead, no one plays, etc... yet it sells many millions of copies. If you maintain D4 sucks and no one plays, or permanently left, do you then honestly expect VoH to flop? Maybe you do, but I will take the over on that one. And if it does well how do explain or reconcile that with the previous premise?

*side note, the amount of preorder VoH mtx I've seen in-game is significant. True, that's anecdotal, but I would lean towards some big VoH numbers.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Those limited D4 stats only further prove out the PoE "debunked" stats are even more likely accurate

No, because math in PoE achievements doesn't even add up anymore, you need to learn how to read years of various data shuffled together. Like some achievements didn't exist before others did, that's why in PoE you get unrealistic numbers. D4 is a lot younger game, so data is a lot more accurate.

If you want I can point out specific achievements that have more people completed them, than other achievement required to get there in first place (like more people entered map after campaign than actually finished campaign).

I can find my older posts, as I proved it is wrong to someone with identical claims to this on multiple occasions, so if you want, I can requote those posts with in-depth analysis.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

(30% is still more than double the PoE campaign number, with far higher numbers, even though PoE is f2p)

The massive differences being scale of course, and from a business perspective, D4 monetizing all those players. If you pay $70 and quit, and then even go on to spend more with an expansion a year, what exactly is the problem from a Blizzard perspective? They are not reliant as much on live service mtx.

PoE seems to be doing a lot better as F2P game here, than D4. It seems that almost half of people who paid 70€ don't want to touch the game, while in f2p there is no "purchase regrets" as game is free.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Truth be told, I'm not even sure what the point being made is? That PoE shouldn't concern itself with onbaording new players, or appealing to less elite players, because a percentage of them will quit anyways? That's your business prop? Hmmm... ok?

I will requote my post then:

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Nomancs wrote:

So is making things "casual friendly" improve anything? D4 proves it doesn't, despite people spending a lot of money to get the game they didn't want to play.

D4 numbers just proved it doesn't work, despite blizz is casualizing d4 each league further and further - it seems to have the opposite effect.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I hear all the time that D4 Bad, D4 dead, no one plays, etc...

Numbers speak for themselves, almost half of people who paid for the game big money don't even wanted to play it after few minutes. Seems to be quite bad, for so hyped game with so huge marketing. So maybe if people say it is shit, they really think it is shit? I do think it is.

So in summary, the numbers for PoE are fake, or inaccurate (of course), the D4 numbers are real though, and show most left, D4 sucks as a game and it isnt "wokring", and PoE should focus on elite players.

Right. What a great 40/40 PoE player take.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

So in summary, the numbers for PoE are fake, or inaccurate (of course), the D4 numbers are real though,

Wrong. PoE numbers are flawed/inaccurate, how couldn't they be if more people opened a map after campaign than actually completed A10 (which is technically impossible in current setup)? That's not possible without numbers to be flawed by multiple years of campaign change (A3 to A4 to A10 story), plenty of people stopped years before we had 10 acts and they count to this data.
D4 data is more accurate as it is fresh game.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

D4 sucks as a game and it isnt "wokring", and PoE should focus on elite players.

Yes, data shows that consistent league by leage casualization of D4 doesn't increase player count, nor retention. So this is not a solution, you claimed would be. It failed. And this is the summary.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Right. What a great 40/40 PoE player take.

Happy to help with data and math.


No need to get defensive around D4 - its just a game, chill out. Anyone can call it a shit game, and it is fine for you to play and enjoy it, but it is also fine for plenty of people think and call it dogshit. 70% didn't even wanted to complete the story despite spending 70€.

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Nomancs wrote:

So maybe if people say it is shit, they really think it is shit? I do think it is.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Right. What a great 40/40 PoE player take.

He is correct tho. Path of Exile has had Steam achievement for as long as I can remember, even when the game only had 3 acts. More achievements were added over time, which is one source of inaccuracy.

Another is that Path of Exile is free to play. Just adding the game to your library without booting it up once counts as a "player" who has no achievements to their name.

Also, the barrier of entry to just try out the game since it's free is so much lower for Path of Exile. But if I pay 70 dollars for a game I want some playtime out of it. My money's worth, so to speak.

I don't think you don't know this. Why pretend?