Rising awareness about Path of Building unintended negative consequences.
" one key difference between GD and POE is the "end game". disregarding all hidden bosses, you dont NEED too much vertical progression. normally when i recommend GD to people i always do so and tell them "dont read guides". GD truly is one of the games that doesnt heavily force you to min max too much. it too is one of my fav games to play, and i m still waiting for the expansion. such a shame its very likely to be overshadowed by poe2. [Removed by Support]
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" Even considering the hidden bosses, you don't need that much vertical progression because there are less dmg multipliers than PoE. There are the basics, atk speed/cast speed, crit chance and crit. But there's the key point: You don't actually need much atk/cast speed if you opt for a build that has lots of active abilities on cooldowns. You can even pump spirit(which people don't advise) for elemental/vit/aether/acid/chaos damage and use only defensive devotions and it'll work wonderfully because most skills in GD deal more than one dmg type, so your investment is actually doubled/tripled. Ofc, going for single element and pump spirit would be suboptimal. Also, due to some key items and active ability mutators it is far, far easier to make hybrid builds like: Battlemage, Melee Summoner, Gun/Spellcaster, Melee+Bow as secondary, 2H Melee and caster I recently made a very strong "death knight" kind of character that is 2h melee and summons 2 blightfiends that tank a lot, taking aggro from me. Ofc they die since I invested only 15% in summon stats and 85% in my stats, but I use a transmutator that makes them die in 12 sec. after I summon them but allows me to summon every 5 sec. They die in maybe 4-8s but they deal aoe aura dmg and debuff the mobs, take aggro and leave a pool of acid after death that continues dealing damage. This makes a huge difference when fighting 3-4 champion mobs at once which is where the danger comes from in GD.(apart from special bosses ofc) I'm currently in the middle of ultimate and elite was a complete breeze. All that with 0 3rd party tools used. | |
" crate (devs behind gd) made one important decision that made it vastly different from POE, which is to introduce caps. attack speed is capped at 200? or 300%? movement speed also (i cant recall). speed is a very dangerous multiplier and i think contributed greatly to how power scales like crazy in poe today. as for skills with cooldowns. this is actually a problem inherent with poe1 specifically due to the skill gem system. our gem slots are VERY limited. having a secondary skill is cool and all and having 2 active skills in poe1 can work. but what about a third active skill? a fourth? this is highlighted with the retaliation skills we now have. its so cool and all, i WANT to use it. but i have no where i can slot it in. similarly VS of the mamba is super good and can be used in conjuction with regular VS IF you socket it in. but the reality is you wouldnt have enough place to socket it in (then again if you're doing it right you dont even need the regular one) GD doesnt have this issue where going horizontal does not eat up sockets, but will have you make decisions on spending points leveling the skill up and enhancing em. GGG is very aware of this hence POE2 [Removed by Support]
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I am pretty sure GGG knows they have an overcomplicated monster they dont understand, they cant model, and they cant predict.
They hired the POB guy precisely because he could model the thing they built, which they can't do. In an ideal world, GGG would have infinite complexity that was still approachable. In reality, it's probably not possible. Either PoE2 will be a lot simpler, or it will be the same overcomplicated mess with impossible to understand language. More elemental damage More elemental damage with attacks More elemental damage with one handed weapons More elemental damage with melee weapons More elemental damage with melee attacks Increased damage with projectile attacks Now ask a new player to figure out which mod increases damage AT ALL on something like ailments from molten strike where elemental damage poisons... Last edited by trixxar on Aug 15, 2024, 11:44:39 PM
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" That's why I love Vaal Skills and think they're one of the best additions. You can actually choose to pay an "attention tax" and be rewarded for it instead of just spamming. I don't think I understand your concept of horizontal progression very well. I guess GD is an "illusion" of horizontal progression. Yes you can just pump 2 main skills + modifiers and get stats from energy reserved auras, or you can invest into 3, 4, 5 damage skills. But that's also vertical progression, it's just not that visible, but you are doing more burst damage per second with 3 or 4 skills when used effetively. Anyway... Extra 6L is one of the main reason I want to play PoE2. I'm not getting my hopes too high up, but it would be great if they also slow down the game(less PoB needed) and make it easier to create more unique, not so specialized characters without it feeling weird like inquis with fanaticism. Last edited by Gordyne on Aug 16, 2024, 12:09:01 AM
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" This issue will only be alleaviated by making the player rely more on his gameplay than on raw stats. In any game that has bullethell elements the players will flock to either extreme tankyness or extreme damage. Ideally you'll have bosses/packs that DON'T delete the players, but have mechanics to interact with, with equipment/build decisions HELPING in the outcome of the fight when the player doesn't play flawlessly, not DECIDING the fight completely for the player. That's why I dislike the extreme dmg in POE and the extreme tankyness you can get in Grim Dawn. In GD is very easy to get 85%+ resistances but harder to scale damage, so you don't really have a choice, getting 8% more resistance is always more effective than 12% crit dmg, for instance. Same for PoE and DMG. Ideally would be like this: Tank classes would be tankier than other classes but wouldn't just be able to stand there and tank. They would have to have skills that block and give buffs for correctly blocking strong attacks in order to tank. Evade some skills that break armor/resists. Aka "active tanking". Same phylosophy for DPS chars. Can't just dps a huge boss in 3 sec. I foresee some ARPG's going that way/evolving in the future, and it's the only way to rely less on "PoBs" "Oh but what about the item hunt?" Well, an item doesn't necessarily needs to be all powerful to be wanted. It can be very rare but also make for a unique playstyle that's not just raw stats. Players will even chase something that gives them 5% more total dmg or tankyness if it's rare. And before someone says: "But this game is not darksouls...", no. Injecting active block skills into a game won't make it into dark souls. There is a great distance to go from "arcade-like 1 skill spamming" to "Dark souls". I believe a healthy middle-ground can be achieved, someday hopefully :) | |
" to me vertical progression is "more dps/more defence", horizontal progression could be more aoe/utility etc gd has a lot of horizontal progression as you have access to secondary/tertiary skills that do something else than pure damage. for sure some of them increase your defense and offence by providing player buffs or by debuffing enemies, in GD it feels like you have so many options and as you said, you dont even need to min max. when you dont feel the need to min max (go vertical) then you would feel more comfortable going horizontal. the jankiest build i made in GD is a ritualist+necro 2 handed melee with no minions. was it optimal? hell no. but i completed ultimate difficulty with it, and i m happpy i could do it. [Removed by Support]
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" I agree with most of what you said. However, I think it can only be achieved with pretty hard caps on dps and tankiness. Otherwise, abusing the mechanics will always beat skill when it comes to 50,000 players. I think PoE would be a better game if players did have to react to the game more, which would require capping dps at maybe.. 5 million dps, and tankiness at taking.. at least 15% of the base damage of any hit, or something like that. | |
" the tricky thing about ARPGs is there should always be 2 ways to clear the game. 1 via skill and another via gear. back when i was younger, i sucked ass at arpgs. see a huge hit coming? fuck that i ll face tank, res then return. to me, players should get to a point that they can "have an easier time" with bosses. maybe not to the point of facetanking, but near that level. ideally, good gears should be a benefit to the player. faster clear times and more chance of making mistakes. but we've arrived to the point where good gears are the REQUIREMENT. D4 actually is starting to make changes that reduce 1 hit kills and actually implement stuff that streamers have suggested such as instead of maven memory game killing the player outright, you get a stacking debuff that makes the game harder for "failing to play properly". this is implemented in their pits, where telegraphed attacks which used to deal a lot of damage now deal less damage but you get slapped with a debuff. in POE it gets worse as some encounters have permanent floor degens which emphasizes the need to have good dps, unless u wanna get a zdps supertank build. its a hard balancing act. even in GD, in one of their latest patches, they made some boss encounters have more active game play components. some of the older players hated it as they rather just facetank everything. [Removed by Support]
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As someone who never used POB, I can say one thing it doesn't provide is mechanical quirks of actual combat. If your POB shows 50M dps and 100k max incoming hit, sure, who cares, you solved entire progression before beginning to play. In this case POE is just a 3D plugin for POB.
But when you don't have resources for one of those "I win" builds, live experience mixed in build construction is more valuable, you can cut corners around AI deficiencies and know how to make most oneshot hazards miss. Today I got the crux of nothingness for the first time in standard, never saw this boss before, but heard he was "pinnacle" for affliciton league. Killed it deathless with my old golemancer who doesn't even have resists capped. While POB warriors often forbid themselves to even try actual gameplay until they reach those 50M in PoB. This is not normal for any game, and in place of devs I would have been worried about how widespread the numbers cult has become. Last edited by Echothesis on Aug 16, 2024, 7:45:44 AM
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