Reminder: Selectable Character Gender is a "Minimum Bar."

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AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Not having gender choices for each class for a new ARPG that isn't by any stretch of the imagination indie is a pretty bold move.

I'd not say they are indie, but regardless.

They made a bit of a deal with Tencent but other than that, they're definitely indie as a bunch of ex-Exiles who didn't go with a publisher.

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Eleventh Hour Games is an independent development studio focused on creating the next great action RPG. From humble beginnings, Eleventh Hour set out to assemble a team of ARPG enthusiasts, building a strong core remote team located across the globe.

https://www.lastepoch.com/media

I mean, they had supporter packs that rivalled the Ruler of Wraeclast. You wouldn't want to do that were you not Indie As Hell.

They at least claim to be indie. They state this:

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Indie is our compass; it means being humble and approachable. It means listening to every voice, encouraging collaboration, and minimizing red tape so gamers can make games.

Compare this to the Wikipedia definition for Indie games:

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An indie game, short for independent video game, is a video game created by individuals or smaller development teams without the financial and technical support of a large game publisher, in contrast to most "AAA" (triple-A) games. Because of their independence and freedom to develop, indie games often focus on innovation, experimental gameplay, and taking risks not usually afforded in AAA games. Indie games tend to be sold through digital distribution channels rather than at retail due to a lack of publisher support.

And compare it to the reality explained in this news post from March 2022 where Judd talks about how he has sought for an investor & publisher, and how they found Tencent.

They're still the sole publisher, but I am not sure I'd call them an indie company, much like the Twitch tag for Path of Exile being indie is a little bit of a joke at this point

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

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arandan wrote:

every single little snowflake

I suppose the PoE forum is something of a safe space for people who use language like that still.

Which is, when you think about it, ironic, given it's supposedly the 'little snowflakes' who need safe spaces.

Okay I'm done. Stop wasting my time please, people. :)

And what language is that exactly? Just because you interpret a word as offensive doesn't automatically make it so. A snowflake in this context is meant to signify that every person is different and therefore expects different things.
Time/resources are finite, so at some point as a game developer you need to set your goals and get to work in order to achieve them, not try to please everybody and constantly add/subtract stuff. That's how shitty games like d4 are made.

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ArtCrusade wrote:

They at least claim to be indie. They state this:

"

Indie is our compass; it means being humble and approachable. It means listening to every voice, encouraging collaboration, and minimizing red tape so gamers can make games.

Compare this to the Wikipedia definition for Indie games:

"

An indie game, short for independent video game, is a video game created by individuals or smaller development teams without the financial and technical support of a large game publisher, in contrast to most "AAA" (triple-A) games. Because of their independence and freedom to develop, indie games often focus on innovation, experimental gameplay, and taking risks not usually afforded in AAA games. Indie games tend to be sold through digital distribution channels rather than at retail due to a lack of publisher support.

And compare it to the reality explained in this news post from March 2022 where Judd talks about how he has sought for an investor & publisher, and how they found Tencent.

They're still the sole publisher, but I am not sure I'd call them an indie company, much like the Twitch tag for Path of Exile being indie is a little bit of a joke at this point

I hear ya. You DID see my spoiler right?

But as I recall, it was a fairly minor investment in EHG from the 10c. Not quite the 85% or so that was their *first* investment in GGG. Yeah, I had a giggle when GGG used that language because apparently 'takeover' was just too on the nose. Or prophetic. I dunno.

So I guess my personal definition would be 'controlling stake'. GGG had investors from the beginning; that didn't mean they weren't indie. And they still publish their own game...so yeah. But now that 'one game developed and published by the same entity' can make so much money as a GAAS, 'self published game' doesn't quite mean what it used to, eh?

"Indie is our compass" is insanely cringe to write for the record. Oof.

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I love how gender options at character creation has somehow morphed into snowflake appeasement and virtue signaling in the last few posts. Like really? Character customization is a selfish "demand"?, and some playerss are engaged in "coercion" of GGG narrative decisons? Jesus wtf lol. This is what I was talking about earlier about having a reasonable discussion on these forums. It's absurd, truly. I ain't going there.

Good luck C, I'm not up to a back and forth with individuals starting out with that sort of premise.

Dude it's 3am and I'm meant to be editing, so yeah. I am probably a bit too edgy right now but ArtCrusade made a damn good point and I am happy to engage with that. The rest...well, now I know We Are Not Alone, I will not engage. Especially not people who think they're being clever and smart and not merely facetious and contentious. ;)

Honestly 0 F's given. For all I care they could all be big sweaty dudes or (preferably) hot chicks.

You pick the character up with a set backstory in a set lore. I think that for example a Warlock (male Witch) would not be set to be burned at the stake, so it would just not work.

Also having a character creator doesn't mean all is good anyway. D4 has character creator - and any woman character I try to make looks like and androgynous, or even more boy-ish, flat-chested whateverburger. Or some classes are outright fat, while their male counterparts actually look strong, bulky or muscular, the female variants just look fat. What I'm saying is - if the class/character is inherently fugly, I'd rather play the male variant. If they are acceptable or good looking even, female all the way.

Note I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to have, but it certainly is NOT a must have.

Also note that characters in PoE are inherently throw-aways. I do not identify as my character but as the build and equipment and actuall power I achieve. Nothing else matters when the leagues have a deadline and you create a new, maybe even a different character every 3-4 months.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

I am probably a bit too edgy right now

You think?

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Especially not people who think they're being clever and smart and not merely facetious and contentious. ;)

well:

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

The rest...well, now I know We Are Not Alone, I will not engage.

You were saying?

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Dude it's 3am and I'm meant to be editing, so yeah. I am probably a bit too edgy right now but ArtCrusade made a damn good point and I am happy to engage with that. The rest...well, now I know We Are Not Alone, I will not engage. Especially not people who think they're being clever and smart and not merely facetious and contentious. ;)

Just had to speak my mind on the Indie subject, because a lot of people seem to believe anything that isn't Triple-A or the newly invented (and totally loony) Quadruple-A warrants the Indie label, lol.

And I sincerely hope you don't have a stake in Star Citizen LOL.

A point occurred to me as I was reading yet more tiresome "This isn't a ROLE PLAYING game, Baldur's Gate is that way, get off my lawn you dumb New Age-y brat" tripe.

All the people who want TRUE MELEE are asking for "role playing" considerations. Darth touched on this (I believe it was Darth, anyways), but "role playing" doesn't solely mean "writing a fancy backstory and putting yourself in the shoes of Nylissa Taranth, elven forester of the Boreanis Reaches". It can mean "I want to feel like a powerful and mighty-thewed warrior, crushing my enemies with naught but the weight of my steel and the force of my muscles."

People call that 'gameplay' because they're looking for a specific feel from the game, but it's not really any different than wanting any other archetype to feel powerful. They want to immerse themselves in the experience of piloting that archetype through the demon hordes of Wraeclast - playing the role of the Mighty Warrior or the Eerie Witch or the Nimble Ranger or whatever else.

People can continue to claim this sort of character selection is purely a "fluff" thing with no impact on gameplay, a null-priority issue that adds nothing to gameplay. But I would point out that hundreds of other games over the last twenty-plus years - not all of them Infinite Budget Triple A things, either - have demonstrated a different stance on the matter. "Gameplay" is not just the mechanical moment-to-moment minutiae of piloting the game. It's the total experience of playing the game.

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