Reminder: Selectable Character Gender is a "Minimum Bar."

I wouldn't get caught up in semantics on what "role playing" means to different people. Many folks enjoy arpgs to engage in class fantasy, which is a form of RP.

Whether it's a huge Barbarian type smashing with a hammer or a Sorceress type wielding magic, these types of characters do convey a feeling of identity to the player. Maybe that's RP lite to you, but it's still RP.

While I cannot speak for the OP in genreal, I do think this is part of what they are touching on. There is some immersion here if you want to play male warlock instead of the female witch. Whether or not GGG acknowledges this is kinda besides the point. The desire exists, and when it's not an option, it does cause some head tilting. In PoE1 it was a bit easier to explain away as a technical nightmare, but in PoE2 not so much.

I have never experienced gender-based dysphoria so I feel supremely unqualified to argue the topic meaningfully, but if we are to take OP at their word, they definitely experience it and I do know they're not alone. But I also know they're 'alone enough' that it probably won't a difference here.

I would be deeply impressed if GGG were to implicitly acknowledge that gender choice for some is really important and in the process expand the incoming game's feature set, but I suspect it'd be labelled harshly by some of their more out-of-touch players who equate these things with an ideology that, at best, represents a sort of catering that runs contrary to the 'hardcore, take it or leave it, git gud' feel of the game.

Curiously, when I googled gender choice as an accessibility issue just now, the first hit was a transgender gamer's opinion from 2014. So let's not pretend this is new or outlandish. I know PoE is stuck in the past, but PoE 2 doesn't have to be. Indeed, this is GGG's one chance to prove they're not.

It shouldn't be controversial to say that no game ever owes you a gender-affirming avatar.

There is something called a narrative, a story, a backstory behind each exile, an intent behind each design decision.

I don't like when anyone is forced to compromise on their narrative design space and coerced into pleasing the tiny-but-vocal "get with the times" bandwagon crowd.

PoE isn't stuck in the past, it is still the best arpg on the market in 2024.
And some players aren't out-of-touch, they simply see what you are trying to accomplish.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

I have never experienced gender-based dysphoria so I feel supremely unqualified to argue the topic meaningfully, but if we are to take OP at their word, they definitely experience it and I do know they're not alone. But I also know they're 'alone enough' that it probably won't a difference here.

I would be deeply impressed if GGG were to implicitly acknowledge that gender choice for some is really important and in the process expand the incoming game's feature set, but I suspect it'd be labelled harshly by some of their more out-of-touch players who equate these things with an ideology that, at best, represents a sort of catering that runs contrary to the 'hardcore, take it or leave it, git gud' feel of the game.

Curiously, when I googled gender choice as an accessibility issue just now, the first hit was a transgender gamer's opinion from 2014. So let's not pretend this is new or outlandish. I know PoE is stuck in the past, but PoE 2 doesn't have to be. Indeed, this is GGG's one chance to prove they're not.

Who are you talking about when you say "out of touch players"? You are fairly active on the forums, but when was the last time you actually played the game? Would you say you're out of touch? If that's not what you mean, what is it?

From interviews I am pretty sure they're open to adding more gender options but it's a cost & time question, and obviously there's the question of money put in vs money made from the investment

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Of course, 'I don't want you getting something that'd improve the game for some people because it'd make me wait longer' isn't exactly a strong position of argument beyond selfishness on the best of days , but hey, you do you. Own that me-first attitude! More people should, honestly.

If game developers wanted to meet every single little snowflakes' expectation, they'd never push their game to release.
Your 'argument' falls on its face too, since expecting other people to wait so that you can RP in a purely loot based game is also, well... selfish?

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ArtCrusade wrote:

"

Foreverhappychan wrote:

I have never experienced gender-based dysphoria so I feel supremely unqualified to argue the topic meaningfully, but if we are to take OP at their word, they definitely experience it and I do know they're not alone. But I also know they're 'alone enough' that it probably won't a difference here.

I would be deeply impressed if GGG were to implicitly acknowledge that gender choice for some is really important and in the process expand the incoming game's feature set, but I suspect it'd be labelled harshly by some of their more out-of-touch players who equate these things with an ideology that, at best, represents a sort of catering that runs contrary to the 'hardcore, take it or leave it, git gud' feel of the game.

Curiously, when I googled gender choice as an accessibility issue just now, the first hit was a transgender gamer's opinion from 2014. So let's not pretend this is new or outlandish. I know PoE is stuck in the past, but PoE 2 doesn't have to be. Indeed, this is GGG's one chance to prove they're not.

Who are you talking about when you say "out of touch players"? You are fairly active on the forums, but when was the last time you actually played the game? Would you say you're out of touch? If that's not what you mean, what is it?

From interviews I am pretty sure they're open to adding more gender options but it's a cost & time question, and obviously there's the question of money put in vs money made from the investment

I'm completely out of touch with POE 1. Goes without saying. But were it not 'out of touch' with that which OP is discussing and we both consider 'standard' for a quality, widespread-appeal ARPG, then...this thread wouldn't exist. And yet so many players are arguing against the idea, for whatever reason. I consider that out of touch with the wider demands and expectations of modern gaming, as someone who does indeed play modern games.

So when I say 'out of touch', I am speaking of any Exile who has made PoE 1 their primary game for years and has not, for whatever reason, kept up with the trends in the industry.

As for money and investment and all that, I already covered that earlier in the thread but when ChanBalam reminded us just how much GGG are pulling in, I call bullshit that it's beyond their budget or even not cost-effective. There is no way that it'd come down to an either/or -- for example, either you get gender+class or you get, say, better monster design or more content. Not how it works, and if it is, then GGG are a lot more trouble than they should be.

Not having gender choices for each class for a new ARPG that isn't by any stretch of the imagination indie is a pretty bold move. Y'all don't like to admit it but the Diablo franchise has had it now for over a decade. The first time was probably because it was in many ways imitating WoW, where of course gender+class selection was and is a thing. But the second time made it feel natural and a given. I would be very surprised if well-budgeted ARPGs going forward don't all do it. Titan Quest 2 almost certainly will, although that one might be truly classless as the first one was model-wise. And somehow that still feels more progressive and 'with the times' than gender-locked classes.

But as I also said earlier, if the gameplay is just so good that it puts every other ARPG out of business, then genderlocked classes won't be that big a deal. It was the same with PoE 1: a flawed masterpiece. That's a really big IF now though.

I want to believe that GGG are tired of making, running, expanding and cramming content into a flawed masterpiece. Or rather, I want to believe that PoE 2's flaws as part of the 'flawed masterpiece' will be new and interesting, not old and predictable and thus avoidable.

I trust this sufficiently responds to your query. If not, please do elaborate where I have been unclear.

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Ulsarek wrote:

Honestly, I'd be surprised if Charan hit maps once in this games lifetime.

You're right. I never made it past The Ledge. GGG made the Endless Ledge just for me.

The rest of what you said doesn't warrant a response. I can't joke about that. :)

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arandan wrote:

every single little snowflake

I suppose the PoE forum is something of a safe space for people who use language like that still.

Which is, when you think about it, ironic, given it's supposedly the 'little snowflakes' who need safe spaces.

Okay I'm done. Stop wasting my time please, people. :)

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NorbertLa wrote:

PoE isn't stuck in the past, it is still the best arpg on the market in 2024.

That's, like, your opinion man. And I hate to say it because I kinda miss sharing that opinion, but plenty of people would disagree, especially now that a certain other ARPG on the market is doing pretty well in its fourth season -- which was little more than its devs going 'shit, we fucked up, we need to fix this'.

Not something I've ever seen GGG as a seasonal/league feature. Ever.

And you can argue that they've never needed to, but you'd be almost objectively wrong there. Players have been calling for an update that does little more than address existing features *forever*. Legacy, as the PoE version of a best-of clip show, kinda came close but GGG didn't really take that time to overhaul much at all.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Not having gender choices for each class for a new ARPG that isn't by any stretch of the imagination indie is a pretty bold move.

Are they indie? Genuine question.