All problems and strategies this and previous league were caused by Magic Find - time to remove it

I agree that the mechanic probably needs an overhaul, and I think it would be a really good idea for GGG to take player input.

I believe that the core issue is that the game itself (read: the breadth of mechanical interactions comprising it) is so complex that those responsible for maintaining and making changes to it are put to an extreme challenge... because of the wall of sufficient comprehension. One needs to comprehend a thing in order to be able to maintain it, update it, make changes that don't cause major problems. Loot generation is a big part of that.

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MoonPeace wrote:

I agree that the mechanic probably needs an overhaul, and I think it would be a really good idea for GGG to take player input.

I believe that the core issue is that the game itself (read: the breadth of mechanical interactions comprising it) is so complex that those responsible for maintaining and making changes to it are put to an extreme challenge... because of the wall of sufficient comprehension. One needs to comprehend a thing in order to be able to maintain it, update it, make changes that don't cause major problems. Loot generation is a big part of that.

Of course if MF was reasonably balanced and it was just a marginal increase over the average, it wouldn't be an issue. But this hasn't been the case for years now.

If you can't hold 10 limes, then you shouldn't hold 10 limes.



The only time when MFing was fine was when all MF items got nerfed hard and Delirium was introduced, because back then you were rewarded for maxing your power, not your quantity and rarity.

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Kiss_Me_Quick wrote:

There was no reason to write 6 paragraphs of absolutely nothing how my opinions is really not an opinion just to state an opinion that you think that "MFing is fairly well balanced".

I'm not really surprised that this was your takeaway from my post. Edit: I apologize for this comment...not really called-for. But, to be fair, I think it was saying more than your summary represents.

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Kiss_Me_Quick wrote:

It's guaranteed 2x loot / 6x uniques / 5x profit per map even without League mechanics. I don't think it's fine, that's it.

What is the "It" that is guaranteed 2x loot / 6x uniques / 5x profit per map even without league mechanics? Break it down for me, if you don't mind. I would sincerely like to see clearly the "nuts and bolts" of what you are saying, and discuss it.

Are you talking about gear IIQ / IIR?... group multipliers?... everything together?

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MoonPeace wrote:

What is the "It" that is guaranteed 2x loot / 6x uniques / 5x profit per map even without league mechanics? Break it down for me, if you don't mind. I would sincerely like to see clearly the "nuts and bolts" of what you are saying, and discuss it.

Are you talking about gear IIQ / IIR?... group multipliers?... everything together?

That's how much your average MFer gets. The profits are greater than an average player also because more is taken out of the map each run, making the runs themselves cheaper comparatively.

2 divines per map with 2 divines per return is not going to be worth it for a non-MF player, but an MF player will get at least 4 divines per map from just quantity but realistically 5-6 from 300-500% rarity as well.

This makes an average player not earn anything, but an MF player earn 60 divines (- 20 divines from costs) per hour.

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Kiss_Me_Quick wrote:

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MoonPeace wrote:

What is the "It" that is guaranteed 2x loot / 6x uniques / 5x profit per map even without league mechanics? Break it down for me, if you don't mind. I would sincerely like to see clearly the "nuts and bolts" of what you are saying, and discuss it.

Are you talking about gear IIQ / IIR?... group multipliers?... everything together?

That's how much your average MFer gets. The profits are greater than an average player also because more is taken out of the map each run, making the runs themselves cheaper comparatively.

2 divines per map with 2 divines per return is not going to be worth it for a non-MF player, but an MF player will get at least 4 divines per map from just quantity but realistically 5-6 from 300-500% rarity as well.

This makes an average player not earn anything, but an MF player earn 60 divines (- 20 divines from costs) per hour.

Would you agree with splitting MF into different category's and making people who want to farm that super buffed currency to have to pay a high premium for it?

with that not only would it force people to pay a lot for it but GGG could regulate a bit more on what kind of rarity/quantity is in our hands.

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Kiss_Me_Quick wrote:

It's guaranteed 2x loot / 6x uniques / 5x profit per map even without League mechanics. I don't think it's fine, that's it.

This is a WILDLY loaded "lie", and par for the course for this entire argument, if you can even call it an argument.

Not an hour later, you then say this is the "average" one can expect from mf. So which is it? Average or GUARANTEED, because those are two very different statements. What kind of mf is this you are calculating it from? Mirror-tier, perfect rolls on every possible piece of mf gear, with both quant and rarity perfected? How were these numbers calculated? Exact same content, exact same rare mods, exact same speed, exact same blahblah? How much does a build like that cost, and how long does it take to repay itself? In that same time an mf player is "repaying" his investment, how much pure profit does the non-mf player get?

No....these numbers are not even close to "real", guaranteed, averages, or anything of the sort. You made them up, plain and simple. You pulled them out of the same misinformed and misunderstood "I hate mf, it needs to go!" baseline argument. And then in the same breath you completely IGNORE all the rest of the things that need to be talked about to actually even have a meaningful talk about mf and whether or not there are actual foundational problems with the mechanic.

The reality of the game is that there are MASSIVE issues with how drops and interactions happen, with or without mf. Mf, as a mechanic, as a gearing option, and as a mathematical formula, does NOT break anything in the game. It offers a modest boost to those who choose to invest in it. Mf is just the "easy option" to attack, because the rest is far more difficult to explain and get into. And this is shown by nearly every "Mf has got to go" thread that ultimately ends in the OP having no actual point about "mf" as a stat.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Would you agree with splitting MF into different category's and making people who want to farm that super buffed currency to have to pay a high premium for it?

with that not only would it force people to pay a lot for it but GGG could regulate a bit more on what kind of rarity/quantity is in our hands.

Imagine if unique MFing was even stronger this league with "unique MF trinkets"? This is on top of the fact that GGG already can't balance MF when it's a single piece instead of 10 different.

Additionally, giving it a price is not a solution because:

1) It's not a loss, it's an investment which you can sell later
2) It still creates an advantage over non-MF players

and if you are truly worried about mf-ers having "an advantage" over non mf-ers...you need to find a different game.

Name ANY mechanic in the game, and those in the know have "an advantage" over those who don't. Any interaction, any playstyle, any mod on gear, any passive point. Advantage, advantage, advantage.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

No....these numbers are not even close to "real", guaranteed, averages, or anything of the sort. You made them up, plain and simple. You pulled them out of the same misinformed and misunderstood "I hate mf, it needs to go!" baseline argument.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtkfl8IBr-k

Just a random 80 quant 211 rarity build from first Google result, not bis rolled.

You don't have to delete items after using them by the way. You can just sell them.

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Kiss_Me_Quick wrote:

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MoonPeace wrote:

What is the "It" that is guaranteed 2x loot / 6x uniques / 5x profit per map even without league mechanics? Break it down for me, if you don't mind. I would sincerely like to see clearly the "nuts and bolts" of what you are saying, and discuss it.

Are you talking about gear IIQ / IIR?... group multipliers?... everything together?

That's how much your average MFer gets. The profits are greater than an average player also because more is taken out of the map each run, making the runs themselves cheaper comparatively.

2 divines per map with 2 divines per return is not going to be worth it for a non-MF player, but an MF player will get at least 4 divines per map from just quantity but realistically 5-6 from 300-500% rarity as well.

This makes an average player not earn anything, but an MF player earn 60 divines (- 20 divines from costs) per hour.

I'm going to break this down.

Instead of defining the "It" and providing some evidence for your loot profile numbers...things that would make analysis of your claims and conversation possible...you've introduced another set of claims without apparent evidence.

Do you see how this makes it very-difficult-to-impossible to discuss your claims? You don't seem to be providing any backing for the claims, so you aren't providing anything of substance for others to analyze and draw their own conclusions (whether they be similar to yours or not).

Conclusions based on hearsay or fantasy are of limited value (usually negative value).

Constructive conversation about this subject needs to have a lot of factual basis -- data, evidence. A link to someone steamrolling a couple of maps is a small drop in the bucket.