All problems and strategies this and previous league were caused by Magic Find - time to remove it

jsuslak313 is right in that it's much more complicated than just one thing and ultimately if we don't acknowledge that most if any solutions aren't going to solve the problem and might make another one worse.

Is MF exploitable? It seems so in the right situation and with highly-organized groups its even overpowered but for your average player it's not quite so cut and dry as investing in these items is not cheap nor is making a build that can utilize them effectively in any kind of difficult content.

Not saying don't nerf mf or change how it works entirely but please try to come up with a solution besides "remove it" pretty please :P

"

SilentSymphony wrote:

jsuslak313 is right in that it's much more complicated than just one thing and ultimately if we don't acknowledge that most if any solutions aren't going to solve the problem and might make another one worse.

Is MF exploitable? It seems so in the right situation and with highly-organized groups its even overpowered but for your average player it's not quite so cut and dry as investing in these items is not cheap nor is making a build that can utilize them effectively in any kind of difficult content.

Not saying don't nerf mf or change how it works entirely but please try to come up with a solution besides "remove it" pretty please :P

Don't need to be highly organized at all. Anyone can follow a build and buy 4 scarabs + an allflame. It wasn't just highly organized players running the anarchy strat.

If "remove it" isn't a solution while acknowledging the problem, then you can propose one yourself.

"

Kiss_Me_Quick wrote:

"

SilentSymphony wrote:

jsuslak313 is right in that it's much more complicated than just one thing and ultimately if we don't acknowledge that most if any solutions aren't going to solve the problem and might make another one worse.

Is MF exploitable? It seems so in the right situation and with highly-organized groups its even overpowered but for your average player it's not quite so cut and dry as investing in these items is not cheap nor is making a build that can utilize them effectively in any kind of difficult content.

Not saying don't nerf mf or change how it works entirely but please try to come up with a solution besides "remove it" pretty please :P

Don't need to be highly organized at all. Anyone can follow a build and buy 4 scarabs + an allflame. It wasn't just highly organized players running the anarchy strat.

If "remove it" isn't a solution while acknowledging the problem, then you can propose one yourself.

The only solution besides removing it is adding mf to affixes across the board, so builds arent pigeon holed into certain uniques, rather then powerful rares they want us to use.


Alternatively, the other option is to make the uniques provide specific increases, rather then a global more multiplier.

For example

Could give increased div cards found. Boots can be increased currency. Ect.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

Kiss_Me_Quick wrote:

"

SilentSymphony wrote:

jsuslak313 is right in that it's much more complicated than just one thing and ultimately if we don't acknowledge that most if any solutions aren't going to solve the problem and might make another one worse.

Is MF exploitable? It seems so in the right situation and with highly-organized groups its even overpowered but for your average player it's not quite so cut and dry as investing in these items is not cheap nor is making a build that can utilize them effectively in any kind of difficult content.

Not saying don't nerf mf or change how it works entirely but please try to come up with a solution besides "remove it" pretty please :P

Don't need to be highly organized at all. Anyone can follow a build and buy 4 scarabs + an allflame. It wasn't just highly organized players running the anarchy strat.

If "remove it" isn't a solution while acknowledging the problem, then you can propose one yourself.

The only solution besides removing it is adding mf to affixes across the board, so builds arent pigeon holed into certain uniques, rather then powerful rares they want us to use.


Alternatively, the other option is to make the uniques provide specific increases, rather then a global more multiplier.

For example

Could give increased div cards found. Boots can be increased currency. Ect.

I've posted this solution a few times with much resistance and there is also removing MF as we know it now and using a type of Trinket system that anyone can equip as an almost secondary equipment layer.

I think specialization provides a more balanced market and as such splitting IIQ and IIR into more specific category's will allow for more opportunity for everyone and those who are purely hunting for currency will have to pay the price to get those specific boosts and it might also give GGG a lot better metrics as to what people are trying to ultimately do.

"

goetzjam wrote:

The only solution besides removing it is adding mf to affixes across the board, so builds arent pigeon holed into certain uniques, rather then powerful rares they want us to use.


Alternatively, the other option is to make the uniques provide specific increases, rather then a global more multiplier.

For example

Could give increased div cards found. Boots can be increased currency. Ect.

It's still the same thing and GGG used to have IIQ rares. Instead of 3x res 50 life 10% unique item you have 3x res 50 life 10% rare item.

The "has specific modifier" is still the same thing because people either want unique items or divination cards. So 20% more divine cards is basically a current 10% IIQ for someone who wants 50/50 divines/uniques.

There's no argument for MF other than "it already exists".

I'd just remove the three crutches tbh

MB/HH and Bitchbois

you can leave MF afterwards, some players will still get sufficient power with sufficient investment but an overwhelming majority won't and it'll heavily cut down on the difficulty bypass currently available.

After that it'd just take mob/map modifiers tweak to make life hard as a glass cannon and MF could exist in the state its intended to.

This would be so unpopular but hey :D just a suggestion

I only suggest it this way round because I genuinely think those 3 are worse for the game than MF existing as an archetype. I can't understand why GGG can justify so many uniques especially T0 ones being like low grade rares because they can't have too much power in a slot then simultaneously having MB in there.

Binos would have to be a 2k pdps 1h to be on a similar level of bullshit

OP: You have made claims, and have not backed them up with detailed explanation, rational argument, or objective analysis.

"All problems and strategies this and previous league were caused by Magic Find". Really? I'd enjoy reading a detailed, rational explanation of how you came to this conclusion...and the same goes for this one: "There's no argument for MF other than "it already exists"."

I see you encouraging jsuslak313 to engage with your argument, but you don't seem to have one. You do have claims, and these appear to be largely baseless (in that they are neither intuitive nor can assumed to be true based on data or obvious fact).

If you are trying to stir up a mob...fine. Mobs, and especially those trying to whip them up, seldom care about backing up claims with detailed (factual) explanations, arguments, and evidence. Rather, using blanket statements that play on emotional and psychological triggers like FOMO tend to be very effective.

However, if your intention is to engage in rational conversation about the perceived problem(s), causes, and solutions, there are others who would be interested in doing so.

By the way, my take is that those responsible for "tuning the numbers" and managing interaction of mechanics...the game developers...have simply been doing poorly at it, I suspect due to a lack of comprehension of the relevant variables or unwillingness to engage with and tune them in a rigorous way. And by "the numbers", I mean, in a loose sense, the collections of multipliers that exist to produce the final rolls that govern the quantity and quality of rewards presented by the game, including "Magic Find".

"Magic Find" an interesting game mechanic. But, it is just one game element, and has the capability of producing imbalance and unintended outcomes. Like anything else, it needs to be carefully tuned in order to shine as a positive aspect of the game.

Its expression in the core game seems fairly well balanced, based on my experience...problems seem to have been introduced by poor tuning of newly-introduced mechanics and league-only mechanics that have undergone insufficient testing, and this itself looks to me like a result of developers trying to do too much (making too many changes and introducing too many new mechanics) in a game that is extremely complex.

^

MF has been power creeping insanely since the introduction of a few key mechanics/items and general community knowledge and awareness. MF was rationally balanced when a majority of MF players were using windripper in white maps blasting efficiently but limited in what content they could do.

SC MF now has basically no drawbacks other than a variable cost of entry which you will earn back extremely quickly.

The fact that SC at least the reddit perspective has turned entirely into a fomo feeding frenzy monster doesn't really help either :p

"

MoonPeace wrote:

Its expression in the core game seems fairly well balanced, based on my experience...problems seem to have been introduced by poor tuning of newly-introduced mechanics and league-only mechanics that have undergone insufficient testing, and this itself looks to me like a result of developers trying to do too much (making too many changes and introducing too many new mechanics) in a game that is extremely complex.

There was no reason to write 6 paragraphs of absolutely nothing how my opinions is really not an opinion just to state an opinion that you think that "MFing is fairly well balanced".

It's guaranteed 2x loot / 6x uniques / 5x profit per map even without League mechanics. I don't think it's fine, that's it.

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

^

MF has been power creeping insanely since the introduction of a few key mechanics/items and general community knowledge and awareness. MF was rationally balanced when a majority of MF players were using windripper in white maps blasting efficiently but limited in what content they could do.

SC MF now has basically no drawbacks other than a variable cost of entry which you will earn back extremely quickly.

The fact that SC at least the reddit perspective has turned entirely into a fomo feeding frenzy monster doesn't really help either :p

Windripper times weren't actually that good either. It might seem so because there just wasn't a reason to do T16 maps, but as you can see from my guide from 3.04, you could do Shaper on full MF gear, and it was my first attempt at an MF build.