Instant buyouts confirmed in PoE 2

Instant trade in PoE1 would hurt the bad player. Curious how they'll handle the PoE2 gold in practice.

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Nomancs wrote:

From a perspective of a player who wants everything instantly, there is no value.

First, I’m aware of the dichotomy and was writing from the point of view of delaying the endgame, not trying to get everything fast.

Second, most important, let’s go from theory to practice. This league I made maybe around 12 mirrors (fair way, without cheesing). How much would be the contribution of dead illiquid loot (that would require too big friction to sell it)? Well, not much, maybe roughly 10%. Most of the loot was scarabs and boss fragments that would go in bulk. So you see players adapt and are able to reduce these artificial frictions. With autoselling the dead loot value would be even less because the price of smaller loot would go lower. And I’m a just mediocre player. Good ones are able to optimize much better and probably made several dozens of mirrors.

Yes, I often had to sit in hideout and went to full mcdonalds employee simulator to liquidate loot. Sometimes I interrupt my farm and ported to hideout to trade. It is delayed my progress of course. But at what cost? This is a questionable part of the game, it is mostly disappointing. Previously I stopped playing the game and even skipped entire leagues when I was disappointed. This time was an exception (stayed mostly because I liked challenged T17).

The fact is these frictions hurt progress of bad players more and do not delay much progress of better players.

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Nomancs wrote:

From game perspective there is, you can take D4 or many other games as example, where friction is added, even to an extreme (like d4).

Besides trading in D4 they added other frictions to the game, I dislike their game very much.
I’m going to try Last Epoch.

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Nomancs wrote:

No, it is the opposite and GGG described it in their manifesto, instant trade equals less trades (gearing steps) so quicker gear progression equals shorter game.

It may only work during early midgame. Towards endgame loot upgrades naturally come asymptotically scarcer. Trade friction matter less, even lesser if player adapted to it. So the trade friction is overvalued.

I would prefer the game would rather had regularly extended rich endgame, like they do in WoW.

You described the problem perfectly, people would gear up a lot quicker - thus game will be a lot shorter. It takes me 2 weeks to get all challenges solo, with eaven quicker trading I would play days probably. PoE is already heading in d4 direction with casualisation, why accelerate it? Also, GGG would have to gut the loot by 90% to compensate.
All games add friction to trade for a reoson. Frictionless trade just doesn’t work, even WoW have it. I understand you want your currency instantly, but there is a bigger picture.

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Nomancs wrote:

You described the problem perfectly, people would gear up a lot quicker - thus game will be a lot shorter. It takes me 2 weeks to get all challenges solo, with eaven quicker trading I would play days probably. PoE is already heading in d4 direction with casualisation, why accelerate it? Also, GGG would have to gut the loot by 90% to compensate.
All games add friction to trade for a reoson. Frictionless trade just doesn’t work, even WoW have it. I understand you want your currency instantly, but there is a bigger picture.

You guys REALLY need to look at from the perspective of someone who isn't online ALL THE TIME.

I'm several months into PoE now, and am still working on my first char, working my way through maps. Frankly, I'm playing PoE a lot less than I was the first couple months, which wasn't a whole lot to begin with (5-7 hours a week). And the main reason I've cut back (and am not sure if I'll even keep playing PoE) is because of the absolute silliness of how trade works.

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Nomancs wrote:

You described the problem perfectly, people would gear up a lot quicker - thus game will be a lot shorter. It takes me 2 weeks to get all challenges solo, with eaven quicker trading I would play days probably.

Not “a lot quicker” - a bit quicker. Endgame might be subjective but I don’t consider any so-called “challenges” or “achievements” an endgame. They are just tasks for time sink.
Endgame in poe: it might be a 10 mirrors build. When you farming 10 mirrors, you learn to optimize these frictions and time lost on these is not significant compared to the actual farm.

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Nomancs wrote:

PoE is already heading in d4 direction with casualisation, why accelerate it? Also, GGG would have to gut the loot by 90% to compensate.

I don’t see casualisation of poe. Instead of cutting loot, make the game more difficult. But close the gap, give players tools to know why character just died.

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Nomancs wrote:

All games add friction to trade for a reoson. Frictionless trade just doesn’t work, even WoW have it. I understand you want your currency instantly, but there is a bigger picture.

It’s not about wanting currency instantly. It’s about when I play a combat game I want to have a combat with mobs, I don’t need mcdonalds employee simulator, nor any other smartphone mini-game.

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wkernel wrote:

Not “a lot quicker” - a bit quicker. Endgame might be subjective but I don’t consider any so-called “challenges” or “achievements” an endgame. They are just tasks for time sink.

It's actually a lot quicker as it already is and people would be able to make currency even easier as it already is to be geared up to the brim to destroy the already weak content in less time.
The current trading is already some anti fast progression measurement to slow down progress a bit, but in all honesty there shouldn't be any trading at all and all should be balanced around ssf play.
Be fun to see lots of those "I need instant gratification and brrrr zoom zoom power" players struggle as they simply can't buy all stuff to destroy the games content in no time.

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Endgame in poe: it might be a 10 mirrors build. When you farming 10 mirrors, you learn to optimize these frictions and time lost on these is not significant compared to the actual farm.

No a 10 mirror build is just a self set achievement and nothing but a pure time sink of grinding for either currency to be cheap ass and mirror a finished product or have the balls to actually tinker a item.
Endgame in PoE are actually pinnacle boss fights and now t17 maps with uber fights being aspirational content, all of it being quite a joke with the current power creep and the already easy and simple way to gear up with the current trading.
Hell even challenges are more of a endgame grind than the 10 mirrors build as it's a set grind that you can tackle after gearing up your character for some free mtx.
The 10 mirrors build on the other hand requires no proper character at all to do content as you could just play the market all day long to get your mirrors.

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I don’t see casualisation of poe. Instead of cutting loot, make the game more difficult. But close the gap, give players tools to know why character just died.

Look at the last two leagues with chase items being dirt cheap and achievable for everyone and their grandparents.
Graveyard crafting throwing close to mirror tier items all over the place for free and a continuing growth of player power.
If you don't see anything bad in that in terms of "casualisation " than idk how to help you lol.
Literally the same shit D3 did at a certain point and the same thing they do in D4. Ever growing player power and everything being easier and easier to achieve cause players gotta be fully equipped to the brim as soon as possible!

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Pashid wrote:

It's actually a lot quicker as it already is and people would be able to make currency even easier as it already is to be geared up to the brim to destroy the already weak content in less time.

"A lot quicker" in theory. In practice we need to see how it will affect the game: the items you farm may get lower value, so you will still need more time to get the top items.
And I wouldn't say T17 is a weak content. You need a strong build to really speed farm T17 b2b.

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Pashid wrote:

Look at the last two leagues with chase items being dirt cheap and achievable for everyone and their grandparents.
Graveyard crafting throwing close to mirror tier items all over the place for free and a continuing growth of player power.

I don't play every league, but I don't see a trend here since occasionally poe had such leagues before, like harvest.
And for the growth of character power there is a growth in mob difficulty (in T17). And Maven memory game still one-shots most of the builds.
I would prefer though they would work more on the tiers/bosses rather than these mobile-like minigames such as graveyard. Better to have new difficult bosses and next Tier 18.
And every boss should be glasscannon proof (see bosses in WoW raids).

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Pashid wrote:

Literally the same shit D3 did at a certain point and the same thing they do in D4. Ever growing player power and everything being easier and easier to achieve cause players gotta be fully equipped to the brim as soon as possible!

D3/4 is another story. They developed based on reddit flame posts, it's a consequence.
D3 seasons were mostly lazy advertisement of upcoming expansion/D4.
In D4 they had 1 endgame boss (Uber Lilith). Instead of developing more such bosses, they turned everything into loot pinjata just to make the subreddit happy (and don't you dare kill bosses solo, you loose 75% of the loot).

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wkernel wrote:

It’s not about wanting currency instantly. It’s about when I play a combat game I want to have a combat with mobs, I don’t need mcdonalds employee simulator, nor any other smartphone mini-game.

Then don’t? but no, you want to eat the cookie and have the cookie. Based on your words it is very visible how huge impact trade have, how much quicker things like gearing and farming and finishing playing would be. It would have to be compensated by loot nerf, a significant one. Not to mention all the other consequences. I dont think adding new tiers (or torments levels like diablo) would solve any of those problems, other game tested it and failed, but if you think it will work this time - send CV.

Sadly, most comments asking for instant trade boils down to „I want more currency, quicker, now”

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Nomancs wrote:

Then don’t?

Target farming Voices 1-3p myself in SSF? No thanks. I’d go mad running so much simulacrums. I’d rather have a choice what content to run.

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Nomancs wrote:

but no, you want to eat the cookie and have the cookie. Based on your words it is very visible how huge impact trade have how much quicker things like gearing and farming and finishing playing would be. It would have to be compensated by loot nerf, a significant one. Not to mention all the other consequences.

The game itself, its combat mechanics affect progress more than ability to trade quickly.

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Nomancs wrote:

I dont think adding new tiers (or torments levels like diablo) would solve any of those problems, other game tested it and failed

It is not true.
In poe: Maven (new bosses) was the best league ever made. And this league I played the longest because of T17s. All the previous leagues I quit either because of these frictions (clunkyness) or after X div/hour farm was reached (lack of endgame: no reason to farm at all).
In WoW: their core is raid tiers, they release new tiers for 20 years now.
I’m not a game developer to send cv.

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wkernel wrote:

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Nomancs wrote:

Then don’t?

Target farming Voices 1-3p myself in SSF? No thanks. I’d go mad running so much simulacrums. I’d rather have a choice what content to run.

But you just wrote you don’t want to trade or as you describe it „mcdonalds employee simulator”? So you don’t want to trade but will not play without it? Thats why I wrote about the cookie.

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wkernel wrote:

The game itself, its combat mechanics affect progress more than ability to trade quickly.
(…)
Target farming Voices 1-3p myself in SSF? No thanks. I’d go mad running so much simulacrums.

Seems trade affects some progression (like gear) a lot more.

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wkernel wrote:

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Nomancs wrote:

I dont think adding new tiers (or torments levels like diablo) would solve any of those problems, other game tested it and failed

It is not true.
In poe: Maven (new bosses) was the best league ever made. And this league I played the longest because of T17s. All the previous leagues I quit either because of these frictions (clunkyness) or after X div/hour farm was reached (lack of endgame: no reason to farm at all).
In WoW: their core is raid tiers, they release new tiers for 20 years now.
I’m not a game developer to send cv.

And how did any of this solved (or is related at all to) any trade problems? Please be more specific what trade problems adding torments/more bosses solved.

You made it clear how much power trade is giving you, and that is something GGG is aware too, thats why they mentioned it in trade manifesto.