What Snorkle & raics said about nerfing support gems made sense.
However I don't really see any indication that they are gonna nerf the monsters in the future. It seems they are quite content with the nerfs and are focusing on other matters. Maybe this task is too heavy and they have a lot of things to consider and balance around?
But the love of Dominus, why making a league mechanic with even more overtuned monsters and timer? Wasn't it their intention to slower the game etc.? These contradictions significantly reduced my trust in GGG. If they respect average players and their time they could have give us a mechanic that is not too punishing for our non-meta sub-optimal builds. But no, Scourge league looks like it was made to cater to the streamers and 1% top players. No wonder why players are dropping it (according to the Steam chart).
Last edited by Networm13#1820 on Nov 6, 2021, 2:46:20 PM
Wasn't it their intention to slower the game etc.? These contradictions significantly reduced my trust in GGG.
I dont think this was their intention. It was rather a mean to an end.
They want to create a game that can be played forever or at least decades.
Their main marketing tool always has been showing off new shiny toys - aka powercreep but they cant keep stacking creep infinitely.
So they reduced the existing creep as a mean to be able to stack more new creep in leagues and years to come. Thats the vision - not a slower paced game.
If thats their goal, then there is no need to nerf mobs. Eventually the playerpower will catch up and this content will be mowed down just like before.
And if this is correct then there is no contradiction at all, its merely a temporary phase of inconvenience for some builds/playstyles.
shit, i mean i remember the first week of open beta, me and everyone i knew playing were the kripp meme at the time. we got to maps with 2k dps, 2k armour and 2k health.
i remember rerolling as an ek marauder and i had about 12k dps, that was obliterating everything and no one i partied with had even half that. i think etup and kerkrum were on top of the hardcore ladder with ek marauders doing about 8k dps.
when bringer of rain was released people were complaining it was totally broken because cleave blenders were getting 20-40k dps.
relative damage has shifted a lot. health and defence is an odd one. back then it was fairly accepted that if you wanted to survive shit then 4k life was a start, 6k life was a minimum to basically feel like you had a char that could theoretically never die.
6k life is still a sort of bench mark where less than that is absurdly glass cannon, but theyve basically let the balance of monsters get so far out of whack, not all of them but enough of a small handful of monsters do such a stupid amount of damage that youre gonna get unfairly 1 shot with 10k hp, so why even bother with 6k hp? people just get 3k now and try to get enough damage to kill everything before it can react because whats the point in dropping 90% of your dps to have 7k life + defences if they game balance is so shit that you still get unfairly 1 shot by utter nonsense?
the meta around defence is so insane now, i talk to players who havent been playing since open beta, theyve been playing a few years. they tell me about their characters, they talk about them being really tanky because they got like 7k energy shield and some block or whatever... im sitting there thinking that sounds like a glass cannon death trap, like a walking corpse with no defences. i see build guides from sc players who have big budgets, people who are sinking 100s of ex into builds, and again they say things like actually my builds really tanky its got 4k life and 60/60 glancing block, feels really safe. again, to me that sounds like literally nothing, to me thats you have 0 defences and you will be 1 shot in white maps by trash mobs.
and they will be, if they fuck up and dont kill everything first they will be instantly deleted by white mobs with those shit tier defences. the problem is that if they invest to have 7k life, 70/70 glancing block with 16k armour, 5 endurance charges, 5% life regen etc they will still be instantly deleted by idiotic unbalanced shit in maps but instead of having 20 million dps they will have 2 million dps and almost be at more risk simply because of that damage disparity.
im so frustrated about how bad some of the balance is in terms of 1 shots/instant burst deaths. i tried out some builds in the last patch, stuff i wouldnt usually play just to see what other builds felt like, get an idea of how stuff plays with current balance. i tried crackling lance where you have to sort of stand there and shoot, cant just pop down a totem or a dot and run around, you got to stand your ground and spam. i had 10k energy shield + 8k evasion and i died 4 times in the space of the first hour playing it in red maps. to put that in perspective playing the builds i would normally play at that level of maps with that level of gear i would expect to die 4 times probably in 6 months to a year of playing, not in an hour.
everything i died to felt like awful game design, literal offscreen 1 shots, on death explosions i couldnt see because entire screen is metamorph black bullshit. at one point i fired a lance at a single mob and accidentally killed a pack of porcupines that were off screen, i didnt see them, i didnt even know porcs were in the map at this point. i just fired my skill, it goes off screen because that is how the skill is designed and i instantly died to the on death effects of the porc spines. with 10k fking es and 8k evasion, in a t14 map with 1 damage mod, 1 damage mod, not an 8 damage mod vaaled t16 map with 5 deli layers on a 4k life build. a 10,000 hp character with 8k evasion in a t14 map with 1 damage mod instantly deleted from offscreen because i used my skill to kill a monster.
fking what the actual fk is that? seriously?
if someone from ggg is reading this can you explain that balance? can you explain why that is in your game for us? we lose 10% xp on death, that is a punishment for us making a bad build or playing it badly, can you explain why 10,000 hp + 8k evasion and then using you skill to shoot at a single monster on your screen is something that needs to be punished with losing 10% xp?
and they wonder why people are complaining about death penalty. because your game is broken, fix your game for god sake how long have porcs been like this? why does a thing have to be broken for 4 years and its still not fixed?
vol dead, remember the old vol dead? it was broken for years and years. why does it take so long? have people not been mentioning unfair 1 shot/instaburst damage? because i feel like the game is 8 years old and ive read 50 posts complaining about those things every week for the last 8 years and theyre still happening? why?
theres a certain vibe of complaining atm and i think a lot of people are being unfair on ggg, unfair on the game and making more of a lot of complaints than is really there. but there are issues like this where the game really needs fixed. 90% of builds i had going into this patch came out the other side with lower defences, nerfed in terms of defence. this was supposed to be a defence buff patch.
how about just actually address bullshit monsters that unfairly kill people? every time they try and buff a thing it ends up nerfed so just forget fiddling with defences. make a concerted effort to identify bullshit deaths and remove them from the game. and while ur at it remember the mantra, screw hardcore, it doesnt matter. these hardcore players saying oh, dont make it too easy to survive in hardcore, btw i have a logout macro and instantly close down my entire game if i feel threatened so you have to balance the game around me doing that... no, no fuck that entire game mode and the bullshit way people play it. it doesnt exist because its idiotic, balance the game so that the other 99% of people who play the game properly have a fair, reasonable experience when it comes to what kills them and feel like if they invest in defence that they are defended and not still just 1 shot by bad design situations.
A combination of screenclutter, bad visual clarity and high base (phys) damage on certain monster types.
The best example where G*3 went full immersion with colors is Metamorph and the Sirus fight.
For making it visually homogenic they sacrificed the visual clarity of different monster abilities.
Metamorp is still bad in indoor maps and Sirus is a Milkshake of reddisch/black colors.
The other problem is the inconsistency of damage dealt vs the monster ability that fires it off.
Sometimes a harmless looking autoswing (melee or range ability) is more deadly than an AOE blast. Look at Redemtion Sentries for example.
Thay mainly do autoattacks but chunk good for an ability that looks neglectable. There are many more examples of this.
Masterpiece of 3.16 lore
"A mysterious figure appears out of nowhere, trying to escape from something you can't see. She hands you a rusty-looking device called the Blood Crucible and urges you to implant it into your body."
monsters are overtuned every league, defences are still not worth investing into compared to full screen glass cannon clear. oneshots are frustrating, on death effects are frustrating, aurastacking shotgunning rares are frustrating.
most skills are mechanically bad and need to be revamped.
ascendancies are unbalanced and some are almost completely useless (juggernaut anyone ? lmao)
itemization is a joke, its impossible to find endgame rares and crafting has been absolutely destroyed and turned into a RNG clown fiesta.
player skill damage has been nerfed, monsters have been buffed , defences have been nerfed (despite the hype and promises)
movement feels clunky, like constantly walking through tar.
they are taking this game too serious and treating it as something that is not a game anymore. games are supposed to be fun, this isn't fun anymore. my friendslist is offline, most people i played with have simply quit the game because they think its not worth playing anymore.
i wish i could give this game up, but i'm in too deep. i hope the devs get their shit together every league but so far it seems they're simply not interested in making a fun game. they're making a playground for some hardcore no-life ego inflation competition
Very cool mirror Service: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3227915
Last edited by impulze3#1573 on Nov 6, 2021, 8:16:36 PM
Wasn't it their intention to slower the game etc.? These contradictions significantly reduced my trust in GGG.
I dont think this was their intention. It was rather a mean to an end.
They want to create a game that can be played forever or at least decades.
Instead they just made game hugely more annoying than before.
Comparing to 3.13 poe now offering less fun, much less rewards, less progress, and less content available to do naturally, so considering those 3 leagues already as a downgrade and way downhill. Not a development for sure.
In this league Im not only not interested to go higher lvl of leaguestarter than 90-92 (usually quite normally hit 96), I even installed some other games and quite have more fun in other titles right from day 5 of the current scourge league..
And poe stays running at background for trading purposes mostly. I run maby couple of maps here and there, get slapped by performance and server issues, get no drop, then just alttab again for a better use of my time.
Thats how the game is dying out actually in my eyes at least..
Last edited by DarkJen#6961 on Nov 7, 2021, 12:06:57 AM
they need to keep the support gem nerfs, and actually if anything they need to nerf support gems even more.
I disagree. The ones who are complaining, the ones the devs tries the hardest to cater to isn't the casuals, it's the top 5% or whatever who crafts godlike items.
Since they are the ones finding that the game "becomes too easy" after achieving GG items since they have like 100+ hours a week to play the game, then it's THEM and THEIR power level that needs to be brought down, not EVERYOBODY's power level through the nerf of support gems.
THEY want harder content. I do not because I don't have the time investment that they do. And this is where GGG keeps on screwing up. They need to find a way to lower the power level of the top players WITHOUT it being taken out on us "casual plebs".
i dont think you are seeing the actual difference nerfing support gems and flask dps etc has on game balance. stick with me on this mate, ill go through some numbers in a minute and hopefully ull see where im coming from. by nerfing support gems and flasks they lower the difference between the top players and the noobs, which you seem to think is the opposite.
theyre not trying to cater to a small %, theyre trying to make a good game that lots of people enjoy and they can feel proud of.
this is what you are not seeing when it comes to nerfing support gems, and it goes along with the flask damage nerfs..
"
it's THEM and THEIR power level that needs to be brought down, not EVERYOBODY's power level through the nerf of support gems.
they are addressing this and this is why they needed to nerf supports and should nerf them even further tbh.
the problem here is sources of 'more' damage. the multipliers. increased damage is all added together, i presume you understand the difference between 'increased' damage and 'more' damage in this game.
what you are talking about is essentially having a game balance problem where you have this 1% elite who do 10 million dps and then a lot of normal noobish players who are doing 500k dps, and the game is impossible to balance around that disparity in damage right? youre accusing ggg of balancing around the 20 million guys and essentially fucking over the noobs as a result. you think they should bring down the top guys so that damage difference isnt as big right?
yes, yes you are right, and thats what nerfing supports and flasks does.
if an elite player and a noob player both play fireball, they have the same gem with the same basic damage give or take. they both get to level 90 and have the same increased damage from passives. the reason the elite player has 20x more damage on their build is because they know how to stack 'more' multipliers, they use more 'more's in their damage amplification chain. the noob has a 5 link and one of his 4 supports is some sort of goofy utility gem that doesnt add dps but does something 'interesting'. the noob essentially has a fireball with 3 more multipliers from 3 damage supports.
the big boy elite player has a 6 link with 5 high class damage multipliers, he also has some auras adding what is effectively sources of more damage, he has flasks acting as more damage multipliers, hes using buffs like arcane surge that give him more damage, curses, exposures...
so lets say the elite guy has 10 sources of more multipliers and the noob has 3.
now lets calc the damage chains and difference in final dps in 2 different situations, a game where the average source of 'more' damage gives 50% more damage, and one where it gives 20%.
both start with 100 base damage, just for maths sake.
in a game where an average more damage source is 50%:
noob: 100 base damage, 3 sources of 50% more damage = 338 damage.
elite: 100 base damage, 10 sources of 50% more damage = 5,767 damage.
now in a game where an average more damage source is 20%:
noob: 100 base damage, 3 sources of 20% more damage = 173 damage
elite: 100 base damage, 10 sources of 20% more damage = 619 damage.
do you see the difference there? in a game where an average source of more damage is 50% more, the elite player has 17x more damage than the noob, in a game where its 20% he has about 3.5x more damage. thats a gargantuan difference in the dps gap between elites and noobs when you bring sources of more damage down from 50% to 20%.
this is why its been so impossible to balance these elite end players vs nooby players, the size of the multiplicative damage layers provided by 'more' damage sources like supports, flasks, auras and curses is so big that the results of stacking them are insane. 17x more damage compared to 3.5x more damage. think about it.
in a given state of game balance where the elite takes 2 minutes to kill an uber boss the noob would take 34 minutes, compared to the other balance state where the elite takes 2 minutes and the noob takes 7 minutes.
what sounds like better game balance?
if they want to address this...
"
it's THEM and THEIR power level that needs to be brought down, not EVERYOBODY's power level through the nerf of support gems.
then what they needed to do was nerf sources of more damage, mainly supports and dps flasks. thats exactly what they did, they are fixing this problem, they are doing exactly what you want them to do which is bring down the difference between top end and low end players.
this is how it has to happen. thats why i say this...
"
Snorkle_uk wrote:
then they need to buff the base damage of skills or reduce the health of monsters, NOT reverse the support gem nerfs.
forget the end value of everyones dps, what you want is the relative dps of high end vs low end to come down right? so the answer is to do what they did, nerf all sources of 'more' damage, and then if people dont have enough damage you use a method that is equal for everyone like buffing base damage provided by all skill gems or lowering the health numbers on monsters.
its important that we understand this as players, that we understand what we want and what the changes we are asking for have, what the changes they are making have. if you really care about the difference between high end and low end players being too big you need to be praising them for nerfing sources of more damage and asking for them to go further, to nerf them even more, and then you need to talk about the values of monster health in relation to the dps people are left with after the changes. that is how the game can be fixed, it cant be fixed by reversing the support gem nerfs, that is the worst thing they could possibly do.
we need to have some faith in them, they do understand, they are trying to make the changes to get from here to a better game state on a lot of these issues. but WE need to understand the process too.
what raics is syaing is completely right. have they rebalanced the game to compensate for the completely correct move to nerf sources of more damage? this is where our conversation needs to be, thats the relevant debate on the serious issue moving forward. has the game been balanced relative to current dps levels?
give examples, im down for that conversation, if were gonna have it lets talk numbers, lets talk how long its taking to kill shit, is it feeling good or not?
I understand that nerfing flask and supports will bring their damage MORE in line with casuals. But it's not support gems and flasks that makes them pull so far ahead over casuals.
They have basically ZERO advantage over the rest of us in terms of support gems and flasks, zero. 21/20 is max for supports and there is nothing they can do to change that. Where they pull ahead is because they have a lot of time to play, a lot of time to farm items to sell for currency, a lot of time to farm for currency. And they spend that currency to craft items that costs several exalted orbs to craft.
Meanwhile I am here making 1 ex a week if I am lucky because I am a casual player. I use that 1 ex to literally buy someone's heavily outdated "garbage dps" weapon because I can't afford the gamble of crafting anything myself, I simply do not make enough currency to take that risk. I make currency too dang slow for that.
At the same time however, Mr. "I got 16 hours to play every day" is running around with gear which mods (note here, GEAR, MODS) makes him do 10x the damage I do. He made the currency to craft it himself or to trade for rare uniques.
So it's not the support gems that gives them 10x the damage, it is all gear and mods on said gear. Gear that I will never be able to afford unless I get a mirror drop. That's why I say that nerfing flasks and support gems being the ultimate solution to the problem is wrong here. They could nerf the support gem multipliers all they want, item mods would STILL put the DPS of players with too much time on their hands to play 10x+ ahead of mine.
Last edited by Xarien#5056 on Nov 7, 2021, 2:48:07 PM
they are taking this game too serious and treating it as something that is not a game anymore. games are supposed to be fun, this isn't fun anymore. my friendslist is offline, most people i played with have simply quit the game because they think its not worth playing anymore.
Came to say that I do think more chase uniques is a good thing. Pretty sure that I'd go for some of them if I had fun with this league mechanic. Maybe next league will be a bit more relaxed, less of a darkness with spam with annoying blocking stuff under timer pressure get-yanked-back-to-sigh-whatever kind of thing.
Regarding to balance, I'm not sure whether that's what they're going for. I've started to think they're more about moving things around and shaking things up for the sake of it.
Such tremendous fluctuations. Power in, power out. Create a bit of neatness here and there, and at the same time cause an avalanche that destroys it.
When I started playing PoE, learning things in the game was very rewarding. I always found Zana's 'have you learned anything new, exile?' so appropriate. Now I feel that in the end it doesn't matter. Most of my lessons learned are not longer valid, everything changes anyway.
I was also used to the idea that in an RPG one would build up value over time. But what is valuable in PoE today may be trash tomorrow.
On top Chris called it 'basically one big beta' in one of the podcasts. Wish I had known that earlier. Thing is, it wasn't until it was just convenient to call it that because they couldn't exercise the proper control anymore. And with that the stance to just try stuff. Just do stuff. It's a vicious circle.
No matter what they try, there will be complaining. But there always will be if you harshly throw stuff around. So they may as well try whatever, which makes them throw around stuff even more. Harvest in, harvest out, harvest in, harvest nerfed, harvest buffed, on and on and on.
At this point I don't think they can do much without there being complaints. Too much negative energy in the network. Trust levels are lower. They say they reduce the amount of clicks, we get a clicker league. They say they want to lower the pace, we get rushy spam hurry timer league. Somewhat less clicks though.
There was a time when I think the passive tree revamp would have been received very positive. Back then all it took was a Cadiro to make people happy. Now it's just all too much.
I think they decided to just go on and focus on PoE 2 with a thickened hide. And yet this league is the best attempt to deliver better QoL.
Good thing too. Hope they notice that amidst all opinions there is _noone_ that disapproves of the QoL (stacks). Too bad they messed up the map conversion in standard and that tabs can't be moved on the consoles and that the guild hideout has some strong inconveniences. Which basically is anti-QoL. That could have been prevented with some testing and some more control.
But the league launch was fine. So there's that.
Rant..
Did you try turning it off and on again?
Last edited by kaepae#2068 on Nov 7, 2021, 4:36:31 PM
